King Midas In Reverse's origin?

[becca67]

I'm reading the Beeswing bio by Richard Thompson and came across this in a reference to an early Fairport Convention gig at The Speakeasy club...

There were always lots of musicians in the audience. One night, the songwriter Graham Nash was sat at a front table, and Ashley (Hutchings) was making some between-songs patter, saying that Fairport didn't seem to have much luck with money - that we were "sort of like King Midas in reverse." A little later, this showed up as the title of a Hollies hit.

It's nice that he considered the song a hit, it really should've been in my opinion, and maybe it was a hit in some parts, but it's mostly been cited as some kind of disappointing release that marked the path to Nash's leaving. Hutchings' ego probably doesn't need this credit on top of founding both Fairport and Steeleye Span plus reinvigorating British Folk-Rock (and Morris dance music) however.

[Mevrouw Bee]

A relative flop considering what came before...and I think Nash hoped it would signal a new, progressive direction. So that it didn't do AS well...*shrug* I still think Nash was too restless to stick around regardless and King Midas was only the straw that broke the camel's back.

I read somewhere that the melody was originally something Allan came up with...

[johnt]

That reminds me of the story when Tony first joined the Hollies and at one of their early concerts, because Tony looked so young, Graham asked him to recite the nursery rhyme 'Teddy Bears Picnic'.

 "If you go down in the woods today, you're sure of a big surprise. If you go down in the woods today, you'd better go in disguise For every bear that ever there was Will gather there for certain because Today's the day the teddy bears have their picnic"

And a few years later, one of their finest albums (in my opinion) was released - For Certain Because.

[becca67]

I sometimes wondered how many people caught that line from Teddy Bear's Picnic, it was pretty familiar when I was little and I suppose the same for Mancusians. Liked all those Henry Diltz photos in New York!

[Mevrouw Bee]

My TV debut (well, only appearance, really) was on a local afternoon "housewives" show on CKPR: Marion Vickruck's At Home Show where our kindergarten class performed "Teddy Bears Picnic" complete with little bear ear hats...coincidentally the same year the album came out, in 1966! (Nah, she was way too old to know who the Hollies were!)

[Stranger]

I always assumed that's where the name For Certain Because came from but I don't think I've ever seen a quote from the Hollies confirming it?

[Mevrouw Bee]

Oct 1, 2022 15:52:09 GMT Stranger said:

I always assumed that's where the name For Certain Because came from but I don't think I've ever seen a quote from the Hollies confirming it?

It's in Bobby's book...

[gee]

Nash stuck around for over a year after 'King Midas...' only reached a disappointing no.18 in the UK so it's a bit more involved than we often assume

Nash had seen 'Butterfly' flop completely - possibly coming too fast after 'Evolution' in a classic year of 1967 when SO MANY landmark albums came out...maybe many felt they had got their 'Hollies album' for that year so opted for another artists work next time....(??)

that's just a guess but with many younger people on limited budgets then it could be a factor - also 'Butterfly' came out in the autumn of 1967 well after the 'summer of love' which might have also gone against it sales wise ?

EMI never went overboard re promotion either - maybe due to that 'leasing back' deal that must have reduced their enthusiasm re The Hollies own 'recording / production' - 'Butterfly' did get on the back of a Parlophone single sleeve but perhaps significantly NO Hollies 1967 albums were on the pink EMI Album Innersleeve

whatever,we do know that they did begin pushing forward WITH Nash doing 'Tomorrow When it Comes' / 'Relax' plus Clarke-Hicks-Nash wrote both 'Open Up Your Eyes' and 'Do The Best You Can' while Allan wrote the imaginative 'Wings' which Graham helped to complete, so clearly there was some notable artistic progression into 1968

HOWEVER - after Tony was not so impressed with both 'King Midas...' and 'Butterfly' lacking big sales success clearly a decision was made not to go further into anything psychedelic OR to stray too far from their musical 'dart board' segment

this after the success of their 'joke' song 'Jennifer Eccles' saw them go back to the more predictable pop of 'Listen To Me' significantly penned by a seasoned pop tunesmith Tony Hazzard - that was the key revert to the 'old' Hollies

Nash was having his songs 'Marrakesh Express', 'Right Between The Eyes' thrown back by Ron Richards and a 'cool' Allan Clarke while notably when Nash took a back seat re group direction what did they do....?

a revamp of 'Like Everytime Before' (a 1966 era song originally cut with Eric Haydock on bass !)

a 'jazzy' take on 'A Taste of Honey' - again an older cut from 1966 redone

a big band swing take on Dylan's 'Blowin In The Wind' which Bobby must have loved but Nash loathed...

also they toyed around with Roger Miller's 'Dang Me' a 'county toon' later part of 1969's aborted 'Sing Country' project

in short minus 'King Midas' Nash leading their musical direction they just went around in circles revisiting various styles and earlier ideas

If Tony (& Allan too) were unimpressed with the direction Nash wanted to go in - writing deeper more mature more personalised songs....then they didn't really offer up any specific other musical direction either beyond just reverting back to doing pop songs penned by 'proper' songwriters....did they ?

Ironic that in later 1969 from 'Sing Hollies' onwards, when Tony Hicks had a burst of songwriting and Allan begins writing more reflective songs too, what direction do they go in ? - more personalised deeper songs ! ('My Life is Over With You', 'Marigold', 'Confessions of A Mind', 'Little Girl', 'Too Young To Be Married' etc....)

Clearly Nash needed to move on, and probably The Hollies needed a 'post Nash' era too - tho' Nash actually influenced what direction they later went in after his exit

even the 'Rickfors Hollies' did acoustic / electric tracks and items such as 'The Last Wind', 'Blue in The Morning' etc that reflected a west coast CSN /CSNY influence - as Tony Hicks admitted

but back in 1968 without Nash leading them re musical direction instead  just 'singing along' the fact was Hicks, Elliott, even then Clarke just had no real firm idea of what direction to go in - Hicks eventually opting to cover any creative original songs angle by doing the Dylan set

We can argue Nash led them in the wrong direction (tho' many love 'King Midas..'/'Butterfly' - which saw Clarke being very creative too) but if Nash did nothing...they had little idea which creative direction to go in otherwise, and it's ironic that Nash even when gone actually helped point Clarke and Hicks (with the fast rising young Sylvester) in the right direction of 'being themselves', being more ambitious and breaking out of the predictable 'safe' pop format more - hence 'Sing Hollies', 'Confessions of The Mind' , 'Distant Light' etc...

Love him or Loathe him the fact was Graham Nash was proved right overall re The Hollies most impressive strengths was in believing in themselves and creatively doing their own thing, despite record companies and some band members clearly lacking his drive and self belief in what they were doing...preferring to 'play it safe' by formula approach

Terry Sylvester later echoed this but like Nash in 1968 by 1981 he too found himself frustrated and at odds re musical direction - even like Nash earlier loathing a song they were doing (Blowin' in The Wind / I Don't Understand You - respectively)

the fact both of the high harmony vocalists who urged a more original musical direction each 'walked' from the group - Allan Clarke also twice - speaks for itself.

[cameron]

I think the point that a lot of people forget when retrospectively evaluating the Hollies' career and indeed music history in general, is that the Hollies' "flower power bit", as Bobby calls it, HAD to happen for their survival. 1967 was truly a standout year in popular music for a "fad" to so widely affect the whole music scene. Not only did psychedelia get even the likes of Adam Faith singing philosophical songs about milking cows, but it sorted the wheat from the chaff, musically speaking, finishing off the weaker beat boom/British invasion groups that weren't ever going to progress beyond a catchy two-and-a-half-minute pop song. Artists like the Searchers, Dave Clark Five, Billy J Kramer and the Dakotas, Gerry and the Pacemakers, Freddie and the Dreamers... didn't survive past 1967 because they didn't move with the times. Even Herman's Hermits couldn't shake their innocent pop band image, which had seen them tour with the Hollies less than a year before 'King Midas' was even released! Elsewhere on the scene, groups like Manfred Mann, the Animals and Moody Blues changed their lineups and shifted gears for a totally new sound in 1967, and found another level of success different to before. 

So the Hollies had to move with that. And it was good fortune that Graham Nash was so involved in the underground scene to be following artists like Donovan and the Beatles so closely. The Hollies had the edge on just about every group at the time, thanks to Graham's connections with these psychedelic figureheads. I've long held the theory that 'Evolution' was a lighter pop album during its conception, but was retrospectively given the summer of love treatment with some of the arrangements to make it fit the direction that Graham believed that music was going in. Evidence of this is the early mix of 'Have You Ever Loved Somebody', debuting on French TV in February 1967, mostly missing Tony's fuzzy guitar riffs. Riding off the back of two colossal hits, both with psychedelic B-sides, 'Evolution' made its assault on the charts and reached a respectable No.13, higher than their previous three albums. 

'King Midas' didn't fail critically. Every review I've ever found of it heaps praise on the track. We can only assume that it either wasn't promoted very well (though they did perform it live on TOTP, which they didn't for the last two singles) or it was competing with too many good singles in the autumn of 1967. 

And herein lies the issue with 'Butterfly': it had too much competition. I have a great poster from WH Smiths, which promotes the "psyche sounds of '67", listing which albums to buy your teenager for Christmas. Rubbing shoulders with the Hollies' latest LP is 'Disraeli Gears' by Cream, 'Axis: Bold As Love' by Jimi Hendrix, Traffic - 'Mr Fantasy', 'Winds of Change' by Eric Burdon & the New Animals, Donovan - 'Sunshine Superman' (UK version), The Kinks - 'Something Else', Pink Floyd - 'Piper at the Gates of Dawn', 'Their Satanic Majesties Request' by the Rolling Stones, Moody Blues - 'Days of Future Passed', 'Smiley Smile' by the Beach Boys, 'Horizontal' by the Bee Gees and not forgetting the Beatles' 'Sgt. Pepper' was still selling well and their expensive double EP 'Magical Mystery Tour' was just out. Has there ever been a year for pop music that had as many era-defining masterpieces released at the same time? All of those albums on that list were less than six months old in December 1967, so you can completely understand why 'Butterfly' got passed over in the process. Previously, 'Evolution' was issued on the same day as 'Sgt. Pepper', and immediately everything else that was out looked a little square next to the Beatles' and the Hollies' latest colourful psychedelic album covers. By the end of the year, the Hollies' latest album was just another kaftan clad collection to the eyes of the wider public. I don't think it missed the mark, I don't think it hurt their reputation and historically its now remembered as being one of their best albums.  

[knut]

I think you are right, Cameron. I have written about the two LP trilogies by The Hollies in the Norwegian Record Collector magazine.
The first is For Certain Because - Evolution - Butterfly. The second is Hollies Sing Hollies - Confessions Of The Mind - Distant Light. Everything self penned, many classic songs. One may argue that Another Night and Hollies (eyes) could be the first two of a third Trilogy, but Write On probable does not deserve the same status.

[gee]

Don't forget The Dave Clark Five scored a no.2 UK hit with; 'Everybody Knows' in 1967...plus had top ten hits in 1968 with:'The Red Balloon' (no.7), 1969 'Good Old Rock & Roll Medley', (no.7), and in their final year 1970 'Everybody Get Together', (no.8)

plus further UK chart singles over the 1967 to 1970 period with;
'You Got What it Takes', 'Tabatha Twitchit' (!),'No One Can Break A Heart Like You','Live in The Sky','Put A Little Love in Your Heart', 'More Good Old Rock & Roll', and their 'Beach Boys' style cover of 'Here Comes Summer'

That's some eleven UK Chart singles up to their dissolution as a group...so it can hardly be claimed that they did not 'survive' past 1967 can it...?

their UK chart success had temporarily waned while their USA success boomed...then vice versa and in all up to 1970 The DC5 equalled both The Beatles and The Hollies scoring some 22 UK chart hits with official singles plus two further chart singles per the 'chart breakers' listing...and even a 1993 top forty UK chart hit with a re-release of 'Glad All Over' 

even the hastily dismissed Hermans Hermits scored a no.4 hit in the USA / no.7 in UK with 'There's A Kind of Hush' in 1967, a UK no.8 hit with 'Sunshine Girl' in 1968, no. 6 UK hit with 'Something is Happening' in 1968, then reached no.2 with 'My Sentimental Friend' in 1969 and had a no.7 UK hit with 'Years May Come, Years May Go' in 1970 followed by two further UK top thirty chart hits later in 1970

so in chart hit terms both The Dave Clark Five and Herman's Hermits were actually scoring regular UK chart hits right up till they ceased....and in fact achieved some bigger placed hits than The Hollies managed over 1967 to 1970 in the UK...!

- a latter sixties period where both The DC5 and HH each scored a UK no.2 hit single which The Hollies never did at that time..


also bettering the chart performance of singles by alot of the acclaimed 'serious' groups like Cream, Jimi Hendrix Experience, Moody Blues, The Who, The Kinks etc in terms of the sheer number of UK chart hits and several big chart hit placings at home

The Who were unable to break into the UK top twenty in 1968 with their three singles, The Kinks had no big hit at all in in 1969, nor did The Rolling Stones in 1970

which is something of an eye opener when so often these mere 'pop groups' are so readily dismissed out of hand as being 'finished' or 'washed up' etc - the actual chart figures tell a rather different story re who was popular with UK single record buyers back then

I disagree with Knut about 'Write On' which I thought was an excellent album well up to the standard of what had gone before it

[becca67]

Despite the infamous "as psychedelic as pint of beer w'lads down t'pub" quote, the Hollies with Nash had a legitimate line in pysch/flower power to me... Maker was genuinely 'trippy', and Butterfly is my pick as their Revolver. When the Stones tried to ape Sgt. Pepper's with their Satanic Majesties Request it came off worse (or with more of a false feel). Nash was writing thoughtful and artistic lyrics that were not of the "strawberry caterpillar" sort (as Captain Beefheart once put it). The Wings song was also very thoughtful, I would've thought that could've been a major hit like Marmalade's Reflections Of My Life or Honeybus' I Can't Let Maggie Go were, but it seemed to get treated as a lesser item.

It worked out for the best though with massive key songs still to come from the Hollies after 1968; Terry Sylvester added some new life, they should've made him an equal and encouraged more of a contribution creatively, and Nash with Crosby and Stills etc. also laid down some massive key tracks of their times. King Midas is a truly great song; if that had The Beatles name on it it'd be considered another Nowhere Man at the least. I don't see Listen To Me or Man With No Expression as predictable pop as say Jennifer Eccles was, they lyrically have more dimension than that.

They should have invested in more and better promotion, maybe if the 'Colour Me Pop' tv spot had been around then like it was for The Small Faces later promoting Ogden's? I liked Ogden's but it has had a much higher rating and profile than Butterfly which is at least as ambitious and high quality.

[cameron]

Interesting points becca67, I don't disagree at all that the Hollies were far more introspective than they're given credit for. They were even writing about ecology with 'Too Many People' way back in 1965! I actually think the flip to 'Jennifer Eccles', 'Open Up Your Eyes' is a particular standout from 1968. It's almost a self-parody of 'Carrie Anne', questioning the mundanity of life. When Ray Davies did that a couple of years later with 'Shangri-La', suddenly it's a masterpiece, but the message in 'Open Up Your Eyes' is exactly the same. Not to mention, it's insanely catchy and very well arranged. Just like 'Carrie Anne', the boys take a solo verse each and there's a great contrasting middle eight section with an unusual banjo solo. 

It's also odd, that over on the Steve Hoffman forum, home of the most esteem-iest of esteemed music know-it-alls, the general consensus of 'Man With No Expression' is that the Hollies' version is better than the CSN version and the original Terry Reid version! 

I do see your point about lack of promotion to a degree, but 'Jennifer Eccles' was promoted on Top of the Pops and received substantial airplay. There was also an extensive tour of both Europe and North America to promote it with various TV clips ('Jennifer Eccles' has just about the largest collection of promo videos of any Hollies song at the time of it being in the charts, not counting later performances of past hits), and indeed 'Listen To Me' was also promoted on TOTP and given various TV boosts in the UK and continental Europe. The Hollies did appear on 'Colour Me Pop' in August 1968 to promote 'Hollies Greatest', performing 'Stop! Stop! Stop!', 'Very Last Day', 'Butterfly', 'Carrie Anne', 'Listen To Me', 'A Taste of Honey' and 'Blowin' In The Wind', interspersed with short animated sections over snippets of the other hits on 'Hollies Greatest'. The footage actually turned up, albeit in black and white, a few years ago and was shown at the British Film Institute's "Missing Believed Wiped" live event. There's a bit of a behind the scenes agenda to restore the footage for potential showing on TV, but more of that when there's an official update... 

[cameron]

Oct 3, 2022 21:53:05 GMT gee said:

Don't forget The Dave Clark Five scored a no.2 UK hit with; 'Everybody Knows' in 1967...plus had top ten hits in 1968 with:'The Red Balloon' (no.7), 1969 'Good Old Rock & Roll Medley', (no.7), and in their final year 1970 'Everybody Get Together', (no.8)

plus further UK chart singles over the 1967 to 1970 period with;
'You Got What it Takes', 'Tabatha Twitchit' (!),'No One Can Break A Heart Like You','Live in The Sky','Put A Little Love in Your Heart', 'More Good Old Rock & Roll', and their 'Beach Boys' style cover of 'Here Comes Summer'

That's some eleven UK Chart singles up to their dissolution as a group...so it can hardly be claimed that they did not 'survive' past 1967 can it...?

their UK chart success had temporarily waned while their USA success boomed...then vice versa and in all up to 1970 The DC5 equalled both The Beatles and The Hollies scoring some 22 UK chart hits with official singles plus two further chart singles per the 'chart breakers' listing...and even a 1993 top forty UK chart hit with a re-release of 'Glad All Over' 

even the hastily dismissed Hermans Hermits scored a no.4 hit in the USA / no.7 in UK with 'There's A Kind of Hush' in 1967, a UK no.8 hit with 'Sunshine Girl' in 1968, no. 6 UK hit with 'Something is Happening' in 1968, then reached no.2 with 'My Sentimental Friend' in 1969 and had a no.7 UK hit with 'Years May Come, Years May Go' in 1970 followed by two further UK top thirty chart hits later in 1970

so in chart hit terms both The Dave Clark Five and Herman's Hermits were actually scoring regular UK chart hits right up till they ceased....and in fact achieved some bigger placed hits than The Hollies managed over 1967 to 1970 in the UK...!

- a latter sixties period where both The DC5 and HH each scored a UK no.2 hit single which The Hollies never did at that time..


also bettering the chart performance of singles by alot of the acclaimed 'serious' groups like Cream, Jimi Hendrix Experience, Moody Blues, The Who, The Kinks etc in terms of the sheer number of UK chart hits and several big chart hit placings at home

The Who were unable to break into the UK top twenty in 1968 with their three singles, The Kinks had no big hit at all in in 1969, nor did The Rolling Stones in 1970

which is something of an eye opener when so often these mere 'pop groups' are so readily dismissed out of hand as being 'finished' or 'washed up' etc - the actual chart figures tell a rather different story re who was popular with UK single record buyers back then

I disagree with Knut about 'Write On' which I thought was an excellent album well up to the standard of what had gone before it

I totally get all these points gee, I apologise for such a sweeping generalisation in my earlier post. But the point kind of remains the same; although DC5 were still scoring hit singles, they weren't a "cool" band like the Hollies were still perceived to be in 1968/9 by the music press and wider audiences. They were seen by the music press to be lightweight and not particularly of note. Ditto Herman's Hermits, who didn't even get an album release in the UK after 'There's A Kind of Hush', which I would very confidently put up there as one of the best beat-boom LPs of the whole of the 1960s, even if it was released a little out of sync with the times. Aside from the odd highly charting hit, they didn't have as much presence on the pop scene in general. 

I'd also argue that culturally, although the Kinks were not particularly riding the charts in 1969 and neither were the Rolling Stones in 1970, they were in very high demand as live acts, filling progressively larger venues than even the Hollies were doing during that era. The Kinks finally played in the US again in 1969, even selling out the Fillmore West Auditorium and attracting a radio broadcast from there. The same can be said of the Who, following playing at Monterey Pop in 1967, their demand in the US in 1968 was huge, even if they didn't really have any new material then. Like the Hollies, they also share the accolade of the only other top tier British group to not release a new studio LP in 1968. 

The other thing to note about the DC5 and HH scoring a UK No.2 in 1968 and 1969, was that the Hollies got two UK No.3s, one of which sold enough copies that year to be certified silver in the UK and went on to be one of the best-selling singles of the year overall here. They also made quite a dent on charts all over the world, which looking at the figures for the DC5 and HH, doesn't seem to be the case for them. Bizarrely, 'Something Is Happening' got to 130 in the US charts and 'My Sentimental Friend' didn't even chart! I can't fathom that, given their popularity in the US not two years before. Changin' times indeed... 

[baz]

Oct 4, 2022 21:16:53 GMT cameron said:

The other thing to note about the DC5 and HH scoring a UK No.2 in 1968 and 1969, was that the Hollies got two UK No.3s, one of which sold enough copies that year to be certified silver in the UK and went on to be one of the best-selling singles of the year overall here. They also made quite a dent on charts all over the world, which looking at the figures for the DC5 and HH, doesn't seem to be the case for them. Bizarrely, 'Something Is Happening' got to 130 in the US charts and 'My Sentimental Friend' didn't even chart! I can't fathom that, given their popularity in the US not two years before. Changin' times indeed... 

I've always found it rather interesting how The Dave Clark Five and Herman's Hermits' careers almost ran parallel in that both of them were much bigger names in the States during 1965 to mid 1967 and put most of their energies into that market - the DC5 had Dave Clark picking and producing all their material whilst Herman had Mickie Most doing the honours and neither of them - unlike The Hollies - went down the flower power route nor developed songwriting skills save for odd tracks that nodded to the changing times. Along comes 1968 and both were out of favour in the States but switched their focus back to the UK and Europe and enjoyed a few more hits before both breaking up in 1970.

[Mevrouw Bee]

Oct 4, 2022 22:40:20 GMT baz said:

Oct 4, 2022 21:16:53 GMT cameron said:

The other thing to note about the DC5 and HH scoring a UK No.2 in 1968 and 1969, was that the Hollies got two UK No.3s, one of which sold enough copies that year to be certified silver in the UK and went on to be one of the best-selling singles of the year overall here. They also made quite a dent on charts all over the world, which looking at the figures for the DC5 and HH, doesn't seem to be the case for them. Bizarrely, 'Something Is Happening' got to 130 in the US charts and 'My Sentimental Friend' didn't even chart! I can't fathom that, given their popularity in the US not two years before. Changin' times indeed... 

I've always found it rather interesting how The Dave Clark Five and Herman's Hermits' careers almost ran parallel in that both of them were much bigger names in the States during 1965 to mid 1967 and put most of their energies into that market - the DC5 had Dave Clark picking and producing all their material whilst Herman had Mickie Most doing the honours and neither of them - unlike The Hollies - went down the flower power route nor developed songwriting skills save for odd tracks that nodded to the changing times. Along comes 1968 and both were out of favour in the States but switched their focus back to the UK and Europe and enjoyed a few more hits before both breaking up in 1970.

Always found that interesting too. And you can add Chad and Jeremy to that. 

I can see the DC5 appealing to North Americans--they had a macho sound guys would find appealing. But they both courted the 16 Magazine and Tiger Beat editors. And the Hollies were never featured as teen heartthrobs in North America. But I also suspect visa issues had a lot to do with it. The DC5 and Herman's Hermits were first out the gate and could easily get them riding the first British Invasion wave I suspect while the Hollies ran across issues. 

Which leads me to ask...I know the Beatles had the freedom of the Tier 1 visas to the US. I wonder about the DC5 and Herman's Hermits? Did they as well or did they have Tier 2 like the Hollies did, that required a reciprocal trade of a US artist to the UK? 

[The Dude]

Oct 3, 2022 17:40:39 GMT knut said:

I think you are right, Cameron. I have written about the two LP trilogies by The Hollies in the Norwegian Record Collector magazine.
The first is For Certain Because - Evolution - Butterfly. The second is Hollies Sing Hollies - Confessions Of The Mind - Distant Light. Everything self penned, many classic songs. One may argue that Another Night and Hollies (eyes) could be the first two of a third Trilogy, but Write On probable does not deserve the same status.

I think Write On is as valid as Another Night and Hollies... That is indeed the third trilogy...