Hollies 1960s UK Chart variations

[moorlock2003]

I just saw a 1966 pop chart from Radio London which showed The Hollies' "I Can't Let Go" at No. 1. It took a flying leap from No. 21 the previous week straight to the top. Wow.

[johnt]

It also shot to Number 1 in the NME Chart as well.

Unfortunately, it only reached Number 2 in the 'Official' Chart. It was held off the top spot by The Walker Brothers 'The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore', I think. 

[gee]

it was indeed (not sure BBC's 'official' chart really was that 'official' in truth...but it was the one they used and pop historians now go by it appears)


- tho' at least 'The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore' was a gem...unlike Paper Lace 'Billy Don't Be A Hero' which held 'The Air That I Breathe' off top spot later in 1974....

[ahkyahnan]

Interesting! I love that song. Funny I just listened to Would You Believe? a couple days ago.

Mark

[johnt]

And at the back end of 1966, Stop Stop Stop peaked at Number 2 as well. This time it was 'Reach Out I'll be There' by the Four Tops that held them off the top spot.

If you include Bus Stop and the two excellent albums Would You Believe and For Certain Because, wasn't 1966 a great year for The Hollies!
 

[rokinrobinoflocksley]

Several things:

--"I Can't Let Go" was #1 on the NME chart for 2 weeks: 1 week by itself, the next week tied with The Walker Brothers "The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore".

--It peaked at #2 on Melody Maker, Disc, Record Mirror, and the BBC. #2 for 3 weeks on the BBC.

--The 'official' chart did not start until Feb 1969. There was no such thing as an 'official' chart prior to that.

--The Guinness chart books in 1977 chose the Record Retailer chart to represent the 60s, but did not declare it as 'official'.

--The 'official' Charts Co did not declare Record Retailer as the 'official' chart of the 60s until 2001/2002, thus rewriting history 32 years after the fact. Or rather, just making up history out of thin air.

--So going forward from Feb 1969, the BBC and Record Mirror and Record Retailer all used the new BMRB chart, which was the true beginning of what came to be known as the 'official' chart.

--Prior to Feb 1969, the BBC used its own chart, which was a calculation of averaging out all the other charts, NME, RM, MM, Disc, and RR.

--Record Retailer had no business being chosen as the 'official' chart of the 60s, as it sampled the fewest number of record shops, and because of that they had so many tied positions that they created a tie-breaker by looking at the previous week's chart. Mathematical malpractice. Thus they were also the least accurate, and disagreed the most with the other charts. RR sampled between 30 and 85 shops, NME up to 175, MM up to 300, Disc over 100, RM up to 60.

--RR also disagreed the most when it came to #1 records. They had 11 #1 records that did not reach #1 on any of the other charts. And they had 6 records that did not reach #1 that reached #1 on ALL the other charts, including The Beatles "Please Please Me" for 2 weeks on all plus 3 weeks on the BBC, and The Rolling Stones "19th Nervous Breakdown" 3 weeks on all plus the BBC.

Those of us who lived thru the 60s lived thru the truth, those who didn't get their chart numbers from a well intentioned but less than totally accurate book.

[johnt]

I used to listen to Alan Freeman's Pick Of the Pops every Sunday afternoon on the radio from the early 1960s and, for me, that was the official chart.

[Gralto]

Feb 28, 2022 13:31:58 GMT rokinrobinoflocksley said:

Several things:

--"I Can't Let Go" was #1 on the NME chart for 2 weeks: 1 week by itself, the next week tied with The Walker Brothers "The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore".

--It peaked at #2 on Melody Maker, Disc, Record Mirror, and the BBC. #2 for 3 weeks on the BBC.

--The 'official' chart did not start until Feb 1969. There was no such thing as an 'official' chart prior to that.

--The Guinness chart books in 1977 chose the Record Retailer chart to represent the 60s, but did not declare it as 'official'.

--The 'official' Charts Co did not declare Record Retailer as the 'official' chart of the 60s until 2001/2002, thus rewriting history 32 years after the fact. Or rather, just making up history out of thin air.

--So going forward from Feb 1969, the BBC and Record Mirror and Record Retailer all used the new BMRB chart, which was the true beginning of what came to be known as the 'official' chart.

--Prior to Feb 1969, the BBC used its own chart, which was a calculation of averaging out all the other charts, NME, RM, MM, Disc, and RR.

--Record Retailer had no business being chosen as the 'official' chart of the 60s, as it sampled the fewest number of record shops, and because of that they had so many tied positions that they created a tie-breaker by looking at the previous week's chart. Mathematical malpractice. Thus they were also the least accurate, and disagreed the most with the other charts. RR sampled between 30 and 85 shops, NME up to 175, MM up to 300, Disc over 100, RM up to 60.

--RR also disagreed the most when it came to #1 records. They had 11 #1 records that did not reach #1 on any of the other charts. And they had 6 records that did not reach #1 that reached #1 on ALL the other charts, including The Beatles "Please Please Me" for 2 weeks on all plus 3 weeks on the BBC, and The Rolling Stones "19th Nervous Breakdown" 3 weeks on all plus the BBC.

Those of us who lived thru the 60s lived thru the truth, those who didn't get their chart numbers from a well intentioned but less than totally accurate book.

Very interesting - excellent post Robin. So based on the above info, if Melody Maker, as the largest of the shop samplers became THE official charts, how different would The Hollies’ numbers in the 1960s look? Could you post a comparison please? (Apols if you have posted this elsewhere previously?)

[rokinrobinoflocksley]

Glad to post this info, Gralto. I should have done it a long time ago. For now, I'll show you Melody Maker vs. 'official-not-really' Record Retailer for the 60s. Later, I'll come back and post for the other charts as well, NME, Disc, and the BBC, and add the 70s numbers too. (Record Mirror stopped compiling their own charts in 1962, and instead began carrying the Record Retailer charts.)

chart peaks, 1st number Melody Maker, 2nd number Record Retailer (*BMRB after Feb 1969)

29 25 (Ain't That) Just Like Me
13 12 Searchin'
_6 _8 Stay
_3 _2 Just One Look
_3 _4 Here I Go Again
_8 _7 We're Through
_9 _9 Yes I Will
_1 _1 I'm Alive
_4 _4 Look Through Any Window
23 20 If I Needed Someone
_2 _2 I Can't Let Go
_4 _5 Bus Stop
_2 _2 Stop Stop Stop
_3 _4 On A Carousel
_3 _3 Carrie Anne
15 18 King Midas In Reverse
_6 _7 Jennifer Eccles
11 11 Listen To Me
_3 _3 Sorry Suzanne*
_2 _3 He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother*

[Gralto]

May 6, 2022 17:45:16 GMT rokinrobinoflocksley said:

Glad to post this info, Gralto. I should have done it a long time ago. For now, I'll show you Melody Maker vs. 'official-not-really' Record Retailer for the 60s. Later, I'll come back and post for the other charts as well, NME, Disc, and the BBC, and add the 70s numbers too. (Record Mirror stopped compiling their own charts in 1962, and instead began carrying the Record Retailer charts.)

chart peaks, 1st number Melody Maker, 2nd number Record Retailer (*BMRB after Feb 1969)

29 25 (Ain't That) Just Like Me
13 12 Searchin'
_6 _8 Stay
_3 _2 Just One Look
_3 _4 Here I Go Again
_8 _7 We're Through
_9 _9 Yes I Will
_1 _1 I'm Alive
_4 _4 Look Through Any Window
23 20 If I Needed Someone
_2 _2 I Can't Let Go
_4 _5 Bus Stop
_2 _2 Stop Stop Stop
_3 _4 On A Carousel
_3 _3 Carrie Anne
15 18 King Midas In Reverse
_6 _7 Jennifer Eccles
11 11 Listen To Me
_3 _3 Sorry Suzanne*
_2 _3 He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother*

Thanks for posting. Was just reading that in 1966 sales of 45s in the UK were down by 25% as kids went off buying everything during the post beat pop boom. Historically I’ve noticed there are SO many 2nd hand copies of Stay out there - it doesn’t surprise that MM is acknowledging the gi-normous sales of the band’s 3rd single, a quantum leap in energy and excitement from Searchin’.

Though many of these MM numbers are very similar, one obvious notable difference if they had been made official is the unbroken top 20 run of singles if If I Needed Someone was shifted back to 23. (We never count After The Fox).

Singles charts have so little gravitas these days but back in the 1960s, a few places difference was a BIG thing. Look forward to your next posting with NME, Robin.

Ps - Australia has issues as well with what are our ‘National Charts’ from the 1960s. Sydney music statistician David Kent’s work has become entrenched as ‘official’ Down Under yet I believe between 1966-74, the Go-Set charts - put together in Melbourne by Ed Nimmervoll and IMHO more comprehensive - spoke to him about this before he passed away (lovely bloke) - should be considered. Officially Australia only lists one number one 45 - Too Young To Be Married - but Go-Set has Long Cool Woman at #1 for 2 weeks.

[rokinrobinoflocksley]

OK, Hollies on the UK singles charts, peaks for the 60s, across all major charts, chart columns left to right:

NME
Melody Maker
Disc [chart ended Aug 1967, started carrying MM]

Record Retailer/Record Mirror [RM chart ended Mar 1962, then carried RR; RR chart ended Feb 1969, RR/RM then carried the BMRB

. . . ‘official’ chart]

BBC [weekly avg of the above charts, ended in Feb 1969, then carried the BMRB ‘official’ chart]
BMRB ‘official’ chart [began Feb 1969]


__ 29 23 25 27 . . (Ain't That) Just Like Me
10 13 16 12 13 . . Searchin'
_8 _6 _7 _8 _8 . . Stay
_3 _3 _3 _2 _3 . . Just One Look
_4 _3 _3 _4 _3 . . Here I Go Again
_7 _8 _7 _7 _8 . . We're Through
10 _9 _9 _9 10 . . Yes I Will
_1 _1 _1 _1 _1 . . I'm Alive
_4 _4 _4 _4 _4 . . Look Through Any Window
24 23 24 20 22 . . If I Needed Someone
_1 _2 _2 _2 _2 . . I Can't Let Go
_3 _4 _3 _5 _4 . . Bus Stop
_2 _2 _3 _2 _2 . . Stop Stop Stop
_5 _3 _4 _4 _4 . . On A Carousel
_3 _3 _3 _3 _3 . . Carrie Anne
18 15 . . 18 16 . . King Midas In Reverse
_5 _6 . . _7 _6 . . Jennifer Eccles
_7 11 . . 11 10 . . Listen To Me
_3 _3 . . . . . . _3 Sorry Suzanne
_2 _2 . . . . . . _3 He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother


So that’s the story for the UK 60s major singles charts (there are some lesser known short lived charts out there as well). Next I’ll dig out the Hollies 70s UK singles chart peaks, and try and look up the LP charts as well. And then shoot for the US singles and LP chart peaks on Billboard, Cash Box, and Record World.

(Gralto, how about changing the name of this thread to something like “Hollies record chart peaks”, so this info can be more easily found? Just a thought…)

[rokinrobinoflocksley]

P.S. For those who want to read up on the true history of the UK charts, check out the link below. In the late 90s, chart expert/guru Alan Smith began researching all the charts, spent years at it, interviewing the actual people who put them together during the 50s n 60s. He wrote and published his first article in Record Collector magazine in the early 2000's, and posted updates on many internet chart forums since then. This latest revision was posted on several websites in 2014. It's a long read, but worth it. And read all the followup posts as well:

www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-discussion/chart-analysis/100512-updated-chart-history

[gee]

They - including that 'official' Hollies webpage that I think has gone now - ought to amend the repeated claim that 'In The Hollies Style' NEVER charted in the UK...it was in the top ten of the NME Album chart for several weeks reaching no.8 I think per the NME Album Chart Book

which makes one wonder how come the supposedly 'official' album chart BBC used never credited it at all (I think maybe they only featured the top ten LPs ?)

anyway the idea 'In The Hollies Style' was a flop non charting UK album clearly was incorrect ...but the view has been held by many it seems

[rokinrobinoflocksley]

Hollies UK albums of the 60s: chart columns = NME, MM, Disc (only ran Apr 1966 - Aug 1967), RR/RM/[BMRB in Feb 1969]:

_2 _4 . . _2 Stay With The Hollies
_6 __ . . __ In The Hollies Style
_8 __ . . _8 Hollies
_8 _8 _8 16 Would You Believe?
__ __ __ 12 For Certain Because
_8 _8 _6 13 Evolution
__ __ . . __ Butterfly
_1 _1 . . _1 Hollies’ Greatest (1968)
_3 _3 . . _3 Hollies Sing Dylan
__ 30 . . __ Hollies Sing Hollies

NME: Top 10 in 1962, Top 15 in Dec 1966, Top 20 in Jun 1969, Top 30 in Nov 1970, Top 50 in 1983, ended May 1988 and started carrying another chart (MRIB?)

MM: Top 10 in Nov 1958, Top 20 in Oct 1968, Top 30 in Oct 1969 thru at least Dec 1979, don’t know after that till May 1988, ended May 1988 and started carrying another chart (MRIB?)

Disc: Top 10 in Apr 1966 thru Aug 1967, ended Aug 1967 and started carrying MM

RR: Top 10 in Mar 1960, Top 20 in Mar 1960, Top 30 in Apr 1966, Top 40 in Dec 1966, Top 15 in Feb 1969 [start of BMRB ‘official’ chart], Top 20 in Jun 1969, Top 40 in Jun 1969, Top 25 in Oct 1969, Top 20 in Dec 1969, Top 50 +/- in Jan 1970, Top 60 +/- in Apr 1970, Top 70 +/- in Jun 1970, Top 57 +/- in Oct 1970, Top 50 in Jan 1971, no charts during strike Feb/Mar 1971 (but ‘official’ now uses the MM Top 30 for that period), Top 60 in Jul 1975, Top 75 in Dec 1978, Top 100 in Aug 1981, Top 75 in Mar 1994, Top 100 in Jun 2007

Kinda sad the LP charts didn’t have more positions 1964-69: NME just 10 to 20, MM 10 to 30, Disc only 10, RR 10 to 40, BMRB 15 to 40. In the States, Billboard was at 150 positions in 1964, Cash Box 100 mono + 50 stereo, Record World 150. If there had been more LP positions, I’m sure all The Hollies LPs would have landed on all the UK charts. How did Butterfly not chart on the RR Top 40 in 1967 for at least 1 week? It makes no sense… In The Hollies Style did hit the NME chart Top 10 for 5 weeks, peaking at #6, but missed the MM Top 10, and the RR Top 20, ugh.

[rokinrobinoflocksley]

Just in case this hasn't been posted yet, here's some more Hollies chart stuff, singles and LPs, from Germany, UK (official), US (Billboard):

chart-history.net/cc/cc-hollies.pdf

[gee]

Re Butterfly - it's possible it was sales wise just BELOW the rather limited album chart threshold to be counted as a UK chart album ....(?)

'Evolution' had a big boost of being Radio Caroline's 'Album of the week' - not bad in June 1967 the month 'Sgt Pepper' was released - and that 'plug' plus disc jockey Kenny Everett praising it up would have given it more exposure

possibly 'Butterfly' was a victim of being a second Hollies studio album coming just a few months after 'Evolution' in a year crammed full of memorable classic albums when younger fans mostly had limited budgets to spend out on etc...

'Butterfly' was included on a Parlophone single sleeve with a few other albums but significantly was NOT included on the pink EMI album innersleeve of 1967 (nor was 'Evolution') unlike 'For Certain Beacuse...' on the earlier 1966 EMI Innersleeve which possibly didn't help either album but more so 'Butterfly'

while for a 'summer of love' image style album it came out a bit later in the year and with 'King Midas' sadly not being so successful again these factors might have counted against it's UK album chart performance ...?

[baz]

Nov 3, 2022 23:32:41 GMT gee said:

Re Butterfly - it's possible it was sales wise just BELOW the rather limited album chart threshold to be counted as a UK chart album ....(?)

'Evolution' had a big boost of being Radio Caroline's 'Album of the week' - not bad in June 1967 the month 'Sgt Pepper' was released - and that 'plug' plus disc jockey Kenny Everett praising it up would have given it more exposure

possibly 'Butterfly' was a victim of being a second Hollies studio album coming just a few months after 'Evolution' in a year crammed full of memorable classic albums when younger fans mostly had limited budgets to spend out on etc...

'Butterfly' was included on a Parlophone single sleeve with a few other albums but significantly was NOT included on the pink EMI album innersleeve of 1967 (nor was 'Evolution') unlike 'For Certain Beacuse...' on the earlier 1966 EMI Innersleeve which possibly didn't help either album but more so 'Butterfly'

while for a 'summer of love' image style album it came out a bit later in the year and with 'King Midas' sadly not being so successful again these factors might have counted against it's UK album chart performance ...?

I also suspect the band going into the flower power garb didn't help as let's face it, when one looks at many 1967 photos, you've got Graham being the all out hippy (and some of those "frocks"... dear dear dear!), Allan kinda caught in the middle as he could look convincing when he had the perm and tache but then you've got Tony, Bobby and Bernie clearly uncomfortable and ill at ease as if they were projecting what the public were thinking. Full marks for actually trying to look as hip as possible for the flower power era but it didn't really work as up till then, The Hollies had a more stylish and smarter image so I can see why many fans thought they had lost the plot with more stranger songs and styles coupled with them trying to embrace the flower power look and ethic.

When one looks at how Nash had "changed" between 1964 and 1967, it was almost so radical it was hard to believe it was the same person so I think 1967 gave out too many mixed signals as you had two sublime pop singles that fit in, progressing from the 1966 gems then along comes the magnificence of "King Midas" and it was a brave and bold move that sadly backfired. Allan later admitted where "Butterfly" was concerned, the band "didn't have a clue" and were just going along with it and I can understand his point and feelings despite the fact for me, it's their magnum opus!

[Mevrouw Bee]

Actually I think Allan was more the "Harry Styles" of the group fashion wise that year. Graham will forever be known as "dude in the kaftan" but in other photos, he was relatively subdued in comparison. And I love Allan's rainbow shirt.

[gee]

A friend of mine once asked Allan to autograph his copy of 'Butterfly' - Allan did but remarked; 'That was GRAHAM'S Album...!'

however to say that and 'didn't have a clue' about 'Butterfly' and were just going along with it etc...is not actually accurate regarding  who contributed what to the set

of course Graham led them into 'psychedelia' - which seemed to work o.k. re 'Evolution' which reached no.13 was Radio Caroline's 'Album of the week', had an even more 'way out cover' (which Jimi Hendrix so loved !) and their use of 'The Fool' Simon & Marjike duly influenced The Beatles re the 'Sgt Pepper' inserts...

and Nash on 'Butterfly' besides providing four solo songs and important contributions to others was essentially the leading figure of both the group re image and musical direction at that point - but Allan Clarke's own lack of self esteem re the album is in reality both absurd and astounding

Clarkey wrote most of 'Dear Eloise', then alone composed 'Would You Believe'...wrote the initial frame of the songs; 'Try it' and 'Charlie And Fred' which Nash helped him to  complete, and together with Nash they co-wrote and sang 'Wishyouawish'

Clarke was a major contributor to 'Elevated Observations ?" too along with Nash and Hicks plus 'Step Inside'

so that's seven out of the twelve tracks that Allan Clarke was a key contributor to as songwriter, over half of the album - yet he claims later it's 'Graham's album' and not to 'have a clue' about the direction of 'Butterfly "...?

the four Graham Nash solo tracks are each 'escapist' themed items ranging  from overseas  holidays to idyllic surreal romantic getaway and re the inner spiritual yearnings to depart probably more the 'giddy' pop scene and musical dartboard segment he increasingly was finding himself trapped within - while Tony added his one solo song

so re anything 'deeper' on 'Butterfly' besides Nash's song 'Maker' the majority of the deeper themed songs actually had Allan Clarke being a major contributor to them - 'Try it', 'Elevated Observations ?' and even the soul searching mental desperation of 'Would You Believe ?' (complete with references to 'this maddening obsession you have over me...') - not a charming carefree lighter love song at all really but the complete opposite (nor had been Clarke's song 'Heading For A Fall' on the preceding album)

I have seen people 'assume' that 'Wings' must have been a Graham Nash song without ANY credit given to Allan Clarke at all....!

A major part of this is down to Allan himself seemingly like a 'rabbit in the headlights of Nash's importance' even all these years later re some of the things he says in interviews - much as Graham Nash does likewise re his glowing mega praise of The Beatles

in each case maybe it is really that they are simply saying what they believe the public expect to hear and therefore is quite 'safe' and acceptable ...(?)

Allan Clarke, in truth,  was a far far more important creative figure to The Hollies even at the height of psychedelia in the sixties than many people,certainly some music press writers, even some Hollies fans, and it appears Allan himself ever seem to realise...

[kitch71]

I totally agree with Gee that Alans contributions to Butterfly are far greater than he either remembers or gives himself credit for.

I like Grahams songs but to me they're more lightweight and whimsical than Alans more earthy and meaningful ones.

Would you believe is for me the best track on the album, with Dear Eloise just behind it. Just me maybe?

I cringe every time i hear the sentence 'i was leading Alan and Tony down a road that they weren't willing or able to contribute ' or something like that. Alan was the guy who had the songs. Graham possibly urged them to sprinkle fairy dust over them.

[Mevrouw Bee]

Nov 5, 2022 8:54:38 GMT kitch71 said:

I totally agree with Gee that Alans contributions to Butterfly are far greater than he either remembers or gives himself credit for.

I like Grahams songs but to me they're more lightweight and whimsical than Alans more earthy and meaningful ones.

Would you believe is for me the best track on the album, with Dear Eloise just behind it. Just me maybe?

I cringe every time i hear the sentence 'i was leading Alan and Tony down a road that they weren't willing or able to contribute ' or something like that. Alan was the guy who had the songs. Graham possibly urged them to sprinkle fairy dust over them.

And I will argue  that Allan grew more as a songwriter after Nash's departure than Nash did after his departure. Always found it interesting that Nash was considered the progressive member of the Hollies, but the poppy hit-maker of CSN.