Butterfly Mixology

[thejanitor]

This was just released by Frederick French-Pounce as the latest instalment of his excellent Mixology series, which compares the interesting and unique differences between mono and stereo mixes of classic albums. There were many cool things I'd never heard or caught onto before in this episode, and I'm sure many of you here will enjoy it too! ☺

open.spotify.com/episode/06kKSRamSe9Yecm7Lhnbf5?si=zVXS8BC-SfycCY4J_difUg

(I'll provide the link to elsewhere for non-Spotify users if needed) 

P.s. This board gets a shout out at the end! 

[Deleted]

Jun 17, 2020 16:39:35 GMT thejanitor said:

I'll provide the link to elsewhere for non-Spotify users of needed.

Yes please!  

[Mevrouw Bee]

Yeah, not on Spotify, so would really like the link, thanks!

[thejanitor]

This should work! 😁
mixology.podbean.com/e/6-butterfly-by-the-hollies/

[fjfp]

Hi everyone! thejanitor told me he'd shared the show here, and I couldn't resist jumping over to join in the conversation. Browsing this forum helped a lot with this episode, so hopefully y'all enjoy what I've been able to do! This album was a HUGE project that involved importing LPs from America and Germany, so to see it all come together was hugely rewarding.

I've included a little list below of all the mixes I've covered on this episode for those interested:

Dear Eloise (Mono)
Dear Eloise (Stereo)
Dear Eloise (US Mono)
Dear Eloise (US Stereo)
Dear Eloise (German Stereo)
Away Away Away (Mono)
Away Away Away (Stereo)
Maker (Mono)
Maker (Stereo)
Maker (US Mono)
Maker (German/US Stereo)
Pegasus (Mono)
Pegasus (Stereo)
Pegasus (German Stereo)
Would You Believe (Mono)
Would You Believe (Stereo)
Wishyouawish (Mono)
Wishyouawish (Stereo)
Wishyouawish (US Mono)
Wishyouawish (German/US Stereo)
Postcard (Mono)
Postcard (Stereo)
Postcard (US Mono)
Postcard (US Stereo)
Charlie and Fred (Mono)
Charlie and Fred (Stereo)
Charlie and Fred (US Mono)
Charlie and Fred (US Stereo)
Try It (Mono)
Try It (Stereo)
Try It (AUS Mono B-Side)
Elevated Observations (Mono)
Elevated Observations (Stereo)
Elevated Observations (German Stereo)
Elevated Observations (US Mono) [Acknowledged, but not heard]
Step Inside (Mono)
Step Inside (Stereo)
Step Inside (US Mono)
Step Inside (US Stereo)
Butterfly (Mono)
Butterfly (Stereo)
+
King Midas In Reverse (Mono)
King Midas In Reverse (Stereo)
King Midas In Reverse (US Stereo)
King Miads In Reverse (German Stereo)
Everything Is Sunshine (Mono)
Everything Is Sunshine (German Stereo)

Sources:
Butterfly - 2016 HiRes for UK Mono/Stereo (but compared with UK 1967 Mono and Stereo LPs to verify)
Butterfly - German Polydor CD (1967 Hansa Pressing used as reference)
Dear Eloise/King Midas in Reverse - 1967 US Mono Pressing [Vinyl NM, but sadly the Epic LPs are prone to poor sound]
Dear Eloise/King Midas in Reverse - 1967 US Stereo Pressing [Vinyl NM, but sadly the Epic LPs are prone to poor sound]
Jennifer Eccles - 1968 AUS 45
Hollies' Greatest - 1968 UK Mono LP (compared with UK 1967 45)
Hollies' Greatest Vol. 2 - Japan 2014 SHM-CD (compared with UK 1967 45)
Hollies' Greatest Hits - 1968 German Hansa Stereo LP

Hopefully that should keep y'all busy for an hour! Enjoy  I've covered a few other albums that hopefully you might like to check out too.

[Deleted]

Fascinating stuff! Really enjoyed that.

I'm sure our resident 'Butterfly' expert Cameron will comment further.

[dirtyfaz]

Had a listen to this podcast this morning here in Australia. What can I say but excellent work and from my perspective an extremely interesting listen. The layout and presentation of the podcast is extremely well structured and by demonstrating aurally the variations it makes it so easy the hear and understand.

Back in 2000 or there abouts I did put together a Hollies recording & recording variations book. The purpose of that book was to show out the differences between the mono and stereo releases of the Hollies and on what releases you could find them. When doing this, that started back in the 80s I had to rely on my vinyl collection and putting tracks to a cassette and trying to link up the playing of the cassette and the record. It did help in identifying the obvious differences but this podcast is way above what I was doing. I didn't back then really understand the difference between wet and dry vocals so I didn't go into the depth that is in this podcast. Butterfly is most likely the one Hollies LP that has the most variations between the mono and stereo mixes.

I would think that the US got their copy of the Dear Eloise etc album together before the UK mixes were complete and it did lead to big difference between the UK and UK versions. America tended to add reverb/echo to a lot of their releases. Interestingly enough back when Sundazed Music released the Dear Eloise/King Midas CD they didn't go to Epic and get the tapes but went to the UK and got the UK issues. I was disappointed back then because that CD didn't truely reflect the US release. I did at the time express disappointment to Sundazed but I don't think they cared as the didn't even reply.

The German release is extra interesting because of the double version of Elevated Observations. Every true Hollies fan should have a copy of the German Hansa Hollies Greatest with all those stereo mixes of that Butterfly period releases.

Try it was issued in a few places as a 45. Australia, US and Mexico (EP) being the most notable ones.

Everyone on that comes to this site should go and have a listen to the podcast. The link again mixology.podbean.com/ and if I and not offending fjtp you should download it and keep it for your Hollies collection.

[Deleted]

Jun 18, 2020 4:54:08 GMT dirtyfaz said:

you should download it and keep it for your Hollies collection.

Done, and burnt to CD!

Looking forward to checking out the other editions of the show (particularly 'Rubber Soul').

Any chance of a show on a Rolling Stones album, or aren't there enough differences to warrant it? 

[fjfp]

Thanks for your responses everyone. dirtyfaz sent me lovely message I came back to, but responses like that do really mean a lot!

Jun 18, 2020 8:04:14 GMT peterc said:

Jun 18, 2020 4:54:08 GMT dirtyfaz said:

you should download it and keep it for your Hollies collection.

Done, and burnt to CD!

Looking forward to checking out the other editions of the show (particularly 'Rubber Soul').

Any chance of a show on a Rolling Stones album, or aren't there enough differences to warrant it? 

I’ve actually got plans to either do Between The Buttons or Aftermath next - neither is particularly heavy on differences, but I’ve got no problem with shorter episodes - makes the longer ones easier to get done! I’ve got an episode on Bookends in the works coming out in 2 weeks, so if that’s up your street feel free to check it out.

I do also run a sister podcast called Back To Mono, which is more of a radio show I suppose, where I play and discuss mono mixes from my collection, almost all of which are my own personal needledrops. I moved that show to podcast platforms from #34, so should you be interested, please check it out from there to get a flavour (obviously it’s evolved over the past 2 years). Plenty of Hollies to be had! (Obviously).

[dirtyfaz]

I love the Between The Buttons LP. My favourite Stones LP although I did like all the early ones up to maybe Sticky Fingers. Went off them a bit after that. BTB would be my choice.
I liked the detail fjfp did with the Beach Boys Shut Down Vol 2 as well. All the surf albums by groups like BBs & J&D had lotsa variations between mono and stereo as mono was the main mix done in the early 60s.

The first couple of Hollies albums would be worth investigating somewhere down the track fjfp.

All of the podcasts are interesting and I am working my way through them.

Thanks again fjfp for the above excellent work on Butterfly.

[Deleted]

Jun 17, 2020 20:31:24 GMT peterc said:

Fascinating stuff! Really enjoyed that.

I'm sure our resident 'Butterfly' expert Cameron will comment further.

Where is Cameron?  Looking forward to his comments on this. 

[Deleted]

Jun 19, 2020 2:24:41 GMT dirtyfaz said:

I love the Between The Buttons LP. My favourite Stones LP although I did like all the early ones up to maybe Sticky Fingers. 

Ditto and ditto!  I've never understood the praise for Exile On Main Street, which to my ears was the first of their very patchy albums (having said that, ALL Stones albums have at least a couple of really good songs, even Goats Head Soup, Emotional Rescue and Dirty Work). 

[baz]

Jun 20, 2020 9:27:42 GMT peterc said:

Jun 19, 2020 2:24:41 GMT dirtyfaz said:

I love the Between The Buttons LP. My favourite Stones LP although I did like all the early ones up to maybe Sticky Fingers. 

Ditto and ditto!  I've never understood the praise for Exile On Main Street, which to my ears was the first of their very patchy albums (having said that, ALL Stones albums have at least a couple of really good songs, even Goats Head Soup, Emotional Rescue and Dirty Work). 

Same here regarding Exile. I only care for the Decca/ABKCO era... a handful of OK singles after then but the 70's and beyond to my eyes and ears is a band lapsing into irreversible self parody.

[fjfp]

Jun 19, 2020 2:24:41 GMT dirtyfaz said:

I love the Between The Buttons LP. My favourite Stones LP although I did like all the early ones up to maybe Sticky Fingers. Went off them a bit after that. BTB would be my choice.
I liked the detail fjfp did with the Beach Boys Shut Down Vol 2 as well. All the surf albums by groups like BBs & J&D had lotsa variations between mono and stereo as mono was the main mix done in the early 60s.

The first couple of Hollies albums would be worth investigating somewhere down the track fjfp.

All of the podcasts are interesting and I am working my way through them.

Thanks again fjfp for the above excellent work on Butterfly.

I’ll get working on BTB next then! I’ve finished up my notes for the Bookends episode in the meantime.

Thanks again for the lovely feedback from everyone. Hopefully cameron jumps in soon, I’d love to hear from him.

[cameron]

I had to resurrect this thread, I don't know how I missed it the first time around! I don't religiously check by this forum, so apologies for missing this. Someone sent me the link to the Bee Gees 'Idea' Mixology podcast today and I've spent all afternoon enjoying these podcasts, including the Hollies ones. 

Firstly, huge props to fjfp for being so thorough and detailed in his research. He'd actually managed to find something that I previously hadn't noticed - the US alternative mono mix of 'Maker' with the slightly earlier/rougher vocal take. I REALLY enjoyed the podcast and the editing on it was superb. The way that these mixes were crossfaded into each other made the differences so obvious. It was apparent that a lot of time and effort has been taken preparing these podcasts. As noted in the comment at the top, it is such a shame that those US Epic pressings are absolute garbage. Someone told me that they were using recycled vinyl at that point to cut costs! Don't know if that's true... Anyway, I bought a sealed copy of 'Dear Eloise/King Midas In Reverse' and it sounds just as bad as the needledrop in the podcast, so those US mixes are impossible to get clean versions of. 

It's staggering how many mixes there are for 'Butterfly', but the big thing that I decided today from listening to the podcast is that like just about every other Hollies album, the master tapes must have been sent to Germany first, as these mixes overall are missing elements compared to the UK mixes. We sadly don't have exact release dates across the world, but I bet the German version was in the shops before the British LP was. It seems that someone (probably Graham) managed to halt proceedings and add in the various sound effects that really make this album so psychedelic. It also would completely explain why the stereo and mono mixes are so different. I reckon Graham went in with a load of tape loops to mix in live during the mono/stereo mixdown. And I bet the reason why the stereo mix is more cohesive overall is because it was done after they'd had a practice run on the mono mix and possibly why the only missing element in stereo (the birdsong on 'Wishyouawish') was down to the tape loop becoming damaged during creating the mono mix. I suggest tape loops, because it also explains the different fade-ins during 'Try It' across the two mixes. 

You have to remember - as much credit as the Beatles get for being innovative, the Hollies were also keen to use the studio to its full potential too. They were used to overdubs, folding down and playback with no headphones (as Graham detailed so accurately in the Reelin In The Years LTAW DVD interview panel on YouTube). I've never really questioned why the stereo and mono mixes of this album are so different, other than dismissing it as being the norm for the 1960s. But the big differences in the two mixes mostly comes down to sound effects and edits, both of which appear to have been done during the mixing process. By this token - could these sound effects be missing from the four track session tapes? 

It also makes me wonder, with that in mind, is this why 'Evolution' is just a stereo fold-down for mono mix? Also why 'Evolution' has never got the remix that it deserves? Listen to 'Have You Ever Loved Somebody' performed on French TV in March 1967, which is missing the iconic fuzz guitar. Was it all just added in during the stereo mixdown? 'Evolution' has many elements that sit on their own with the vocals in the right channel, which I always put down to just how things were bounced on the session tape. However, the alternative stereo mixes featured on the German record club on S*R International possibly point to all the elements being there on the session tapes for 'Evolution' at least. Remember that later Tony Hicks played a live guitar solo during the mono mixdown of 'Like Every Time Before', that's not on the session tape and the reason that the stereo mix has no lead guitar or guitar solo on it, so the Hollies knew about this recording technique. 

Sadly, no one has ever got any of the Hollies to elaborate on any of the recording sessions for these albums specifically, so for now, we continue to not have any definitive answers, merely speculations. But thanks Fredereick for changing my perception of 'Butterfly' with this superb podcast. I look forward to getting through all the others. 

[Gralto]

I’m clearly two years behind on some topics raised here on EO and I can only offer a big thanks to Cameron for rebooting this thread (and to The Janitor for originally posting, to say nothing of Podcaster Frederick and his amazingly detailed work here). Wow - this podcast is wonderful and demands repeated viewing.

If you love picking out the mixing differences in Hollies 60s output from various sources, this hugely enjoyable hour is a must for all Hollies fans. You are guaranteed to pick up new things you’ve probably heard many times and thought “that version sounds a bit different” without ever being fully cognisant of precisely what. I found myself thinking my ideal version of Butterfly would now be a mixture of mono and stereo tracks, sourced from 3 different countries!

The Maker revelation is entirely new and even amongst all the Hollieholics here, I don’t think has ever been picked up previously. This also includes acknowledging the incredible work of Chris Farrell (Dirtyzfaz) whose Hollies Recording Variations listing - later book - was the first time anyone had bothered to investigate all the recording differences of the mighty back catalogue of The H. Chris was plugging away on this in Sydney in the 1980s with only his enormous Hollies vinyl collection to compare and contrast. Chris was then generous enough to allow me to publish extracts in my old 1990s Hollies fanzine ‘Look What We’ve Got’.

In a way, this podcast made me slightly melancholy in that while The Beatles have had their recording history and key recording personnel’s thoughts extensively mined for information since the 1970s, there is a total absence of similar recollections of the Hollies. Key man in all of this, engineer Peter Bown - absolutely crucial to the sound of The Hollies on disc - died too young many years ago, and to the best of my knowledge, no interview with him discussing his work with The H is known to exist. I have interviewed several engineers or tape ops on Hollies sessions, and while they remember every point of note on a Beatles session, remember almost nothing when working with our boys. Ron Richards was interviewed on occasion - including by yours truly - but didn’t offer too much on such detail when asked.
It remains a blip on The Hollies history that we may never have first hand answers to the secrets of these sessions.

Frederick has taken a deep dive into the ‘Hollies 65’ album as well and I’m going to check that one out next. Right after I see if I have that US version of Maker on a disc or not!

Super stuff - heaven for any Hollies nerd!

[knut]

Talking about variations, here is a UK front sleeve with yellow colour around "Butterfly". Probably a test press.

[becca67]

Pretty much my favorite Hollies LP! Will have to find the Bee Gees' Idea one as well...