|
Post by wingflapper on Nov 12, 2013 20:28:37 GMT
For those experts on the forum, I have just come across a brief item in Disc and Music Echo saying that The Hollies played shows with the Lovin Spoonful and Beach Boys, and witnessed a Simon & Garfunkel recording session within a three day span in April 1966. I can't seem to find these dates in existing Beach Boys concert histories or S&G material. Anybody aware of these?
Thanks, Jerry
|
|
|
Post by gee on Nov 13, 2013 10:25:20 GMT
Th Hollies toured the USA playing shows and dates between 28 March 1966 - rehersals for 'Hullabaloo'- through to 7 May 1966 when they played Pismo Beach.
They played Murray The K's new club at Long Island New York from 1 April 1966 - the opening of the club - to 3 April 1966 which re attending a Simon & Garfunkel recording session in NY and co-billing with The Lovin' Spoonful & The Beach Boys appearing alongside The Hollies in a show seems the most likely dates. - The Beach Boys presumably were over from California and were also playing shows in NY at that time too...(this seems the most likely period given the standing of Murray The K)
The Hollies also attended a recording session for 'The Mamas and The Papas' on 28 April 1966
By 30 April 1966 they were playing Tucson, Arizona and on 6 May 1966 played two shows 30 miles apart in Sacramento ! (they were busy lads then)
Hope this helps...
|
|
|
Post by stuball on Nov 13, 2013 14:47:35 GMT
I seem to recall there was trouble with the American Musicians Union over work permits, or lack thereof, and some dates on the '66 U.S. spring tour were scrubbed, before it was all sorted out. The Hollies, although present in the NBC New York studios for the taping of the weekly network pop show Hullabaloo, were not allowed to perform, or even appear, so host Soupy Sales and his young sons had to do some last-minute ad-libbing to eat up screen time caused by the absence of The Hollies' performance.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2013 16:47:24 GMT
I seem to recall there was trouble with the American Musicians Union over work permits, or lack thereof, and some dates on the '66 U.S. spring tour were scrubbed, before it was all sorted out. The Hollies, although present in the NBC New York studios for the taping of the weekly network pop show Hullabaloo, were not allowed to perform, or even appear, so host Soupy Sales and his young sons had to do some last-minute ad-libbing to eat up screen time caused by the absence of The Hollies' performance. As mentioned here:
|
|
|
Post by gee on Nov 13, 2013 21:55:00 GMT
That Milwaukee show in Peter's above interview posting was on 13 April 1966, and apparently The Hollies performance was cancelled late on by instructions of the U.S. Immigration Authority re a work permits issue....
This was symptomatic of the entire 'Hollies in the USA' sixties thing - dogged with problems !!
a year before over 14-15 April 1965 The group spent two days waiting at Heathrow Airport, London for U.S. visas clearance before they could fly out for a month long gig at the Paramount Theatre New York, and then it was just a two song or so short stint several times a day on 'The Soupy Sales Show'
- hardly the National 'Ed Sullivan Show' & Washington gigs The Beatles did , then The Rolling Stones, The Searchers, The Dave Clark Five, Gerry & The Pacemakers, The Animals, Billy J.Kramer With The Dakotas, ... and even Freddie & The Dreamers (!) had all enjoyed giving them national exposure to the American record buyers - Freddie enjoyed a few big USA hits and briefly there was even 'Freddiemania' !
The irony is many Americans LOVED The Hollies and became big & loyal fans to the band WHEN they got to finally see them....
the entire Hollies 'Ameican' thing was poorly handled on BOTH sides of the pond...as in retrospect it appears that the organisation on both sides seemed very weak, and probably cost the band dearly in terms of proper recognition Stateside for such a long time in their hit making heyday - The Byrds had an almost identical experience when briefly visiting Britain too in failing to capitalise on their hits
while The Kinks similarly got held back by the musicians union ban for three key years in the sixties
The Hollies seemed to have endless 'clearance' problems, then were never on the key shows (besides maybe 'Hullaballoo' where they went down well) and it was only later via 'The Smothers Brothers Show' and 'Live at Hollywood Palace' during their most successful latter sixties days with Epic records in the USA that they became better known in the USA, and despite the seemingly endless put downs of some music press writers - which sadly still seems to be the case even now - they still built up a loyal appreciative American fanbase.
sadly the 1973 tour with Mike Rickfors instead of Allan Clarke, despite good gigs & the 'Midnight Special' show failed to properly establish them minus Clarke whom most Americans expected to be singing...another chance missed by sheer ill luck (& a since admitted mistake by Tony Hicks in turning down Clarkey's offer to do that tour)
By 1983 even Graham Nash's return wasn't enough to interest that many Americans, possibly too many 'negative' press comments (& a few unwise earlier 'digs' by Nash too ?) took their toll...
although when the Carl Wayne led Hollies returned to the USA for a music festival in Cape Cod area again alongside the reformed Lovin' Spoonful both bands got glowing American press acclaim....so the USA was still a viable place for The Hollies to perform even 'post Clarke' era...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2013 22:20:59 GMT
Actually I'd call 'Shindig!' a key show (they appeared on it several times, albeit in segments taped in England), but otherwise you're right of course.
|
|
|
Post by stuball on Nov 17, 2013 18:56:44 GMT
[This was symptomatic of the entire 'Hollies in the USA' sixties thing - dogged with problems !! - hardly the National 'Ed Sullivan Show' & Washington gigs The Beatles did , then The Rolling Stones, The Searchers, The Dave Clark Five, Gerry & The Pacemakers, The Animals, Billy J.Kramer With The Dakotas, ... and even Freddie & The Dreamers (!) had all enjoyed giving them national exposure to the American record buyers - Freddie enjoyed a few big USA hits and briefly there was even 'Freddiemania' !] Yes, as, it was a pity the group never made it onto The Ed Sullivan Show, which was the premier Sunday night variety showcase on CBS. I suppose similar to Sunday Night at the London Palladium in Britain. The entire country tuned in at 8 PM to watch a variety of acts aimed at each age group of the entire family. For the teens, a pop act was usually included. The problem for The Hollies in '64 was they had no big top ten smash, and therefore no hope of getting booked. I think 'Just One Look' could have probably turned the trick, but it had previously been a big hit for Doris Troy only months before, so people weren't buying! And at #98 on the charts, kiss goodbye to any interest from Ed Sullivan. [the entire Hollies 'Ameican' thing was poorly handled on BOTH sides of the pond...as in retrospect it appears that the organisation on both sides seemed very weak, and probably cost the band dearly in terms of proper recognition Stateside for such a long time in their hit making heyday -] Poorly handled is putting it mildly. Here's a personal anecdote that was related to me re The Hollies: About thirty-some years back, I was chatting with a colleague during a break at work, about how, like most people, we'd bounced around work-wise after college days were through. He told me how he and some buddies had for kicks formed a booking agency. They apparently booked local acts in area venues and made a few bucks. I asked if they had engaged any big groups and he said, "Do you remember a group called The Hollies?" "Remember them?" I blurted out, "they're my favourite group!" He then proceeded to tell about his 'Hollies Experience'. Back in the autumn of '66, The Hollies were touring the US, off and on linking up as the opening act for Herman's Hermits. In between these gigs were open nights on the Hollies' schedule. Apparently my pal's agency got in touch with The Hollies organization and booked the group to come to Kitchener, Canada for a one-off gig. All went as planned, but it was a disaster. In an auditorium that could hold roughly about 6000, The Hollies drew a paltry 250 people! (This was a site that drew capacity crowds for The Beach Boys, The Supremes and later, Led Zepplin). My pal confessed it was all his agency's fault, having little idea of proper promotion and advertising. They were surprised they could book The Hollies that late and that easy. Anyway, The Hollies were very professional and played and sung their hearts out for the tiny crowd, but it must have been so disappointing. I'm sure their management must have heard about it! Shortly after that disaster, the guys wound up the booking gig, and found proper employment. Now whether this was all true, I can't say, but I believe so. My workmate, who was not a big music fan at all, was in earnest and very honest, and the time and dates, and the gig in question all check out, as far as I can discern. I asked him about The Hollies themselves, and he said he spent some time with them the day of the gig. He told me Graham and Tony (the only two names he could remember) were lots of fun and very outgoing. The others were on the quiet side but pleasant enough, except 'the singer', whom he described as one miserable so-and-so. Don't know if Allan was 'under the weather', or angry about the gig, but something obviously had him upset! I'm not saying this night was typical of The Hollies late '66 tour, but it does point to some slipshod bookings. To think this was in the wake of the big breakout hit 'Bus Stop' and with 'Stop! Stop! Stop!' just being released, it seems hard to believe these tours weren't more professionally planned and conducted.
|
|
|
Post by Stranger on Nov 18, 2013 10:13:29 GMT
That's interesting Stuball. The Hollies in America seem like serial one hit wonders. Surely by '74 with ten hits under their belts (including some very big ones) they could have been a reasonable concert draw.
Just the other day I was reading a contemporary news report of how their '83 New York gig with Graham was scheduled for Radio City with a capacity of 6,000 and had to be moved to I think the Bottom Line with a capacity of 600.
|
|
|
Post by stuball on Nov 18, 2013 16:08:05 GMT
That's interesting Stuball. The Hollies in America seem like serial one hit wonders. Surely by '74 with ten hits under their belts (including some very big ones) they could have been a reasonable concert draw. Just the other day I was reading a contemporary news report of how their '83 New York gig with Graham was scheduled for Radio City with a capacity of 6,000 and had to be moved to I think the Bottom Line with a capacity of 600. Yes, The Bottom Line was really a New York club with an intimate feel and a limited capacity. It was the place where generally, new hot acts would be put on display for the press and fans, as a way of breaking them to the general public. The fact that The Hollies with umpteen hits,were for the umpteenth time, being broken to an American audience, says it all when it comes to the group's standing in the US. Years ago, a critic remarked regarding The Hollies, that they were as popular as their latest single: if it was a smash, then the group was in the limelight. But if it was a flop, they sank into obscurity. And that was very much true. The Hollies first established themselves stateside with 'Bus Stop' and their follow up hits allowed a major presence until 'King Midas' tanked. With the following run of minor hits, by mid '68 they disappeared from the American consciousness until 'He Ain't Heavy'. Then once again forgotten until 'Long Cool Woman' re-established them. And the same pattern again until 'Air'. Hollies albums sold only if there was a hit 45 included. 'Dylan' didn't chart, 'Moving Finger' barely, because of a lack of public awareness. The old phrase 'Out of sight, out of mind' could have been written for The Hollies' American experience. On the Nash reunion tour, the group got a lot of publicity, not just in pop magazines but in the daily papers as well. Add to this a strong push from Atlantic, backing the 'Stop In The Name Of Love' single, and the 'What Goes Around' LP, and the stage was set for what should have been a very successful tour. But it was the same old story: Nash or no Nash, The Hollies were always good for a hall of about 2000 or so. That was their fan base over here. Pick something too big, Radio City say, and there'd be acres of empty seats. Graham Nash's star had faded considerably by '83, so he wasn't going to be a game changer. Perhaps the promoters thought CSN&Y fans would come out in droves. If so, they were delusional: the two groups may have had fine harmonies in common, but their fans were as different, and as compatible, as chalk and cheese. That the 45 stalled at #29, and the album got generally tepid reviews, didn't help either.
The Hollies had earlier played The Bottom Line in May '75, when Epic Records booked four shows there and four more at The Roxy in L.A.(another small club of 500 or so) to promote the LP 'Another Night'. That album had got absolutely glowing reviews from critics, but the final result was the same: 'Another Night' stalled at #123, due to the relative failure of the singles 'Sandy'(#85) and 'Another Night(#71), and sank into Hollies album obscurity. Oh, and regarding these '75 Hollies Bottom Line shows, more than one reviewer questioned why a group of The Hollies stature and history, was forced to display their talents at a small club accustomed to breaking new and up coming acts.
|
|
|
Post by gee on Nov 18, 2013 17:01:14 GMT
They made a big mistake in not getting onto the 'Ed Sullivan Show' - Freddie & The Dreamers, Gerry & The Pacemakers, Hermans Hermits were all FAR bigger in the USA than The Hollies or (in the sixties) The Kinks !
Herman even had The Who as support band on a USA tour...while he tooped the American charts with 'I'm Henery the Eighth I am' that did nothing in the UK ! (likewise Freddie did well Stateside with 'Do The Freddie' that sank in the UK)
so exposure to the wider public was one key thing, while The Hollies lack of any image went against them too, as music fractured into Pop & serious Rock they fell between stools somewhat (as did The Move, Tremeloes, etc even Badfinger did)
Not touring with Allan Clarke in 1973 was another silly and major error too...only further confusing the USA audience who understandably were expecting the singer of the recent LCW and LDR chart hits ...
'What Goes Around...' crammed with those mostly very forgettable Paul Bliss songs didn't help...and a mere ten short songs (with a MASSIVE 'run out' groove on the record that looked shocking) was very weak for 1983....
surely a Hollies studio version of Nash's 'Wasted on The Way' & 'Teach Your Children' (valid as both songs were being sung live in the touring show)...and maybe new Hollies versions of Clarke's recent USA chart hit '(I'll Be Your) Shadow on The Street' & 'Slipstream' plus perhaps a Clarke-Hicks-Nash sung version of Gary Benson's 'Sanctuary' and including; 'Let Her Go Down'(with strong harmonies & fine guitar solo - criminally wasted as just a NZ 'B' side) added to Alan Tarney's rockin 'Somethin Ain't Right', plus Mike Batt's 'If The lights Go Out', together with; 'Someone Else's Eyes',' Stop in The Name of Love', 'Take My Love And Run', 'Say That You'll Be Mine', 'Musical Pictures', & 'Having A Good Time' ...
...would have made for a far more complete fourteen track album (seven tracks each side rather than just a mere five) and would have been overall far less synth/drum machine 'poppier' based but more vocal harmonies & guitar led tracks, making for a much stronger set with a few original songs included at least...
perhaps set out like this:
Side One: Slipstream (Clarke) - Take My Love And Run - **Wasted on The Way (Vocal: Nash) - Say That You'll Be Mine - Something Ain't Right - Someone Else's Eyes - If The lights Go Out
Side Two: Stop in The Name of Love - **Teach Your Children (vocal: Nash) - Musical Pictures - (I'll Be Your) Shadow on The Street (Clarke) - Let Her Go Down - Having A Good Time - Sanctuary
I can't help but think this 14 song version of 'What Goes Around...' (still featuring a couple of the stronger Paul Bliss songs but not the synth' very 80's tinny pop sounding ones !) and minus the lame re-cut of 'Just One Look' - which invited criticism - would have been FAR stronger and better value for money....and even got Clarke & Nash a bit more in royalties too !
all lead vocals - Allan Clarke, except** All Harmonies: Clarke-Hicks-Nash
|
|
|
Post by Stranger on Nov 20, 2013 20:09:51 GMT
According to the definitive new history of the Beach Boys on tour the Beach Boys did play some dates with the Lovin' Spoonful in April but not with the Hollies. However, they did share a bill with the Hollies on September 30th in Montgomery Alabama and Birmingham the following night, October 1st.
|
|
|
Post by anthony on Nov 20, 2013 21:48:21 GMT
|
|
|
Post by gee on Nov 21, 2013 10:25:51 GMT
Per The Hollies tour booklet when Carl Wayne and Alan Coates were in the band, it states on page 20 that they played two shows on 2 March 1968 in Chattanooga, Ten, with The Beach Boys also on the bill too.
the tour booklet lists all their USA gigs but only that and one other show in Texas with Simon and Garfunkel state any other artists sharing the bill.
Does that BB history book state if their April 1966 shows with The Lovin' Spoonful were to do with the opening of Murray The K's new club at Long Island, NY ?
|
|
|
Post by Stranger on Nov 21, 2013 10:57:54 GMT
Per The Hollies tour booklet when Carl Wayne and Alan Coates were in the band, it states on page 20 that they played two shows on 2 March 1968 in Chattanooga, Ten, with The Beach Boys also on the bill too. Does that BB history book state if their April 1966 shows with The Lovin' Spoonful were to do with the opening of Murray The K's new club at Long Island, NY ? On March 1968, the Beach Boys weren't on the road, they did a few shows early in the year, finishing up in February, then starting a major tour in April. No mention of Murray the K around this period, in April '66 they played one gig in NY at Cornell University.
|
|
|
Post by stuball on Jan 2, 2014 21:29:43 GMT
Hermans Hermits were all FAR bigger in the USA than The Hollies Herman even had The Who as support band on a USA tour...while he tooped the American charts with 'I'm Henery the Eighth I am' that did nothing in the UK ! Herman's Hermits were massive over here in '65-'66. Back in 1964, The Dave Clark 5 were the closest thing The Beatles had to a rival. The press played up the whole competition angle, with the 'who's bigger, The Beatles or The DC5?' In reality, The Beatles were always way ahead, but the rivalry helped sell magazines. By 1965 however, Dave Clark's star had faded somewhat, and The Hermits came out of nowhere to form The Beatles closest competitor. Herman, or should I say Peter Noone, was the star, and as a former child actor, knew how to mug for the camera, winning him millions of fans, particularly of the female persuasion. He was made for television, and took full advantage of it. The result was that the group was huge well into '66, their catchy records sold like hot cakes, and 'Herman', at a time when just being English was half the battle, laid on the accent extra thick, sending his young fans swooning. But by late '66, Herman's Hermits popularity began to wane, and after 'There's A Kind Of Hush' gave then one last classic, they faded fairly quickly into oblivion. They disappeared from the charts by '68, and most people never gave them another thought. Which brings me to 1976. Back then, during a period The Hermits were touring the oldies bar circuit, promoting their latest 45, I had several long conversations, usually over a few pints of Guinness with Derek Leckenby, the lead guitarist of the group. Lek, as he was known to his friends, was, unlike many rock stars, thoughtful, educated, and very loquacious. He looked back on the career of Herman's Hermits, and freely talked of the group, its origins, their high and low points, touring the segregated south in '65, record company policies and group management policies which helped and hindered their career. It really was fascinating. Why I bring it up here, on a Hollies site, is our conversation drifted onto rival groups, and soon Lek brought up The Hollies. His admiration for The Hollies was palpable. While he was quite blunt, off the record of course, on the musical qualities of some of their British Invasion rivals, he lavished praise on The Hollies. While quite unaware I was a huge fan of the group, Lek stated his favourite vocal harmonies were that of Clarkie (he never referred to Allan Clarke as 'Allan' or 'Clarke', always the affectionate 'Clarkie') and Terry Sylvester. I recall him stating that when Clarkie and Sylvester's voices combined in concert, it was pure magic. I asked what he thought of the Clarke/Nash vocal mix, and surprisingly, he thought it great on record, less so live: sometimes the harmonies went a bit askew, in his opinion. But he said he wasn't knocking Clarkie or Graham, he just preferred the newer combination. On record, he thought The Hollies were great too, and was an obvious fan. He also related to me that, in the wake of the unreleased Hermit's LP, (at a time when the group went under the moniker Sour Mash), while the group was rehearsing, in unannounced walked Clarkie with a guitarist in tow( this would be about 1972). Lek fished about for a name, "Ray...." he hesitated. "Glynn?" I suggested. "Yes, that's it. How did you know?" Anyway, Lek related that the group had a great fun session with the two, and that Ray Glynn was a absolutely fabulous guitar player, and combined with Clarkie's magnificent voice, he presumed Clarkie and Glynn were really going to make it big. That it never happened, surprised and disappointed Lek. I saw Lek and The Hermit's once more in 1977, and then that was it. Although he's no longer with us, I'll always treasure my chats with Lek, and his admiration for The Hollies. At a time when the group was being constantly belittled by the press and certain musicians, it was great to know, in some musical circles, The Hollies were very much admired.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2014 6:24:27 GMT
Both The Dave Clark Five and Herman's Hermits were still having UK hits as late as 1970: DC5 had 3 hits that year, and HH had 4. So even though they were (briefly) bigger in America, it was in the UK where their careers lasted.
|
|
|
Post by gee on Jan 3, 2014 11:17:16 GMT
Interesting post re the Late Great Derek 'Lek' Leckenby - an underrated guitarist !
Re his preferring Clarke/Sylvester live...I can understand that having seen The Hollies live in each decade, the sixties shows (by everyone) are more 'ragged', often with far more primitive equipment than later (microphones, amps, and instruments were often very 'dodgy' back in those days), and the singing could be a bit 'hit and miss' - remember the seventies Hollies were all more experienced and mature with their sixties years of performing/recording under their belt (Terry's too in Escorts/Blue Jeans) so by the seventies they SHOULD have been even stronger as live performers (& no doubt were) with more 'together' harmonies etc, as the second decade of The Hollies saw them well established 'masters' of live performing with all that earlier experience behind them - likewise The Stones, Who, Kinks, etc & Paul in Wings, with their first decade behind them all were more accomplished as performers and still in good voice etc...
so minus any 'screaming fans' as back in the sixties drowning them out (even at Lewisham Odeon as late as 1968) the seventies Hollies would have only got tighter and tighter as a perfoming outfit...
remember John & George grew tired of touring partly because The Beatles as a live band were 'going downhill' by 1965/66 as they couldn't hear themselves sing !
'Lek' was a serious musician of some skill in a band badly dismissed as 'mere pop' (worse than The Hollies suffered), the name 'Hermans Hermits' probably did them few favours later as no way could they be taken seriously under that monicker....plus 'I'm Henery The Eighth I Am', 'Leaning on A Lampost' (a George Formby song) etc ensured they got roundly dismissed by 'serious critics of music'
On the other hand they made some great sixties pop - 'I'm Into Something Good', 'Silouettes', the driving 'A Must To Avoid', the riskay 'You Won't Be Leaving' (Tonight), the charming 'East West', the poignant 'No Milk Today', the unforgettable 'There's A Kind of Hush' - later a seventies hit for The Carpenters too
- songs penned by top writers such as Carole King/Gerry Goffin, Bob Crewe, the young Graham Gouldman , Tony Hazzard, and Les Reed etc
while among the hits and comedy tracks were real gems such as; 'Gaslight Street', 'It's Nice To Be out in The Morning', 'What is Wrong What is Right','Museum' (written by Donovan) while latter hit 'Bet Yer Life I Do' was penned by Hot Chocolate's 'Wilson-Brown' team.
'Sunshine Girl' had fine vocal harmonies on the intro too...
The Hermits could pull out a few surprises too - a powering version of David Gates Monkees song 'Saturday's Child', the Boyce-Hart song; 'If Your Thinking What I'm Thinking', their cover of Frankie Laine's hit; 'Jezebel' & 'My Reservation's Been Confirmed' are as powerful as anything their much lauded rivals were cutting & 'Lek' & co DID play on those, even if they were joined by the likes of Jimmy Page & arranger John Paul Jones from time to time...
A folkier side was evident in their excellent covers of Seekers guitarist Aussie Bruce Woodley's reflective acoustic songs; 'Rattler', and 'Little Miss Sorrow, Child of Tomorrow'
plus they made a USA hit out of Kinks' Ray Davies album track 'Dandy' - very important in raising Davies USA profile during the time The Kinks were banned from touring the States.
while Peter Noone is often seen as just a pop 'pretty boy' his vocals were distinctive and even David Bowie rated him highly enough to play piano on his HIT cover of his song; 'Oh You Pretty Things' in the early seventies
so HH should get SOME due acclaim for being a superior pop group (not a bad thing at all) who enjoyed a consistant chart run in the UK from 1964 to 1972, plus American success too, even if their albums were (like The Dave Clark Five) essentially a mixed bag of songs thrown together...something that later rather detracted from both their critical standings
'Lek' deserves to be remembered as a fine guitarist in a top sixties pop group of some standing.
I could never understand why Clarkie & Ray Glynn parted company....more 'Clarke-Glynn' songs would have been great, and I feel Clarkie ought to have done more 'Rockers' besides his ballads on his solo albums...and maybe cut out a few of the 'country' songs and other singer/songwriter songs covers that to me never sounded quite appropriate or as if he was that comfortable doing compared to the uptempo Rockers & sincere ballads...I always felt on most of his solo albums Clarkie tried to go in too many differing directions and the albums sounded too much of a 'mixed bag'
- his latter more focused original songs albums with just the odd cover but in a more uniform style were all the stronger, plus by then he stopped trying to suppress the 'Hollie in him' allowing some vocal harmonies back in and making the songs sound stronger for it...
|
|
|
Post by stuball on Jan 3, 2014 17:20:38 GMT
Both The Dave Clark Five and Herman's Hermits were still having UK hits as late as 1970: DC5 had 3 hits that year, and HH had 4. So even though they were (briefly) bigger in America, it was in the UK where their careers lasted. Yes it was Peter. And at the time(1970), I was unaware that the two groups were still in existence. Once they disappeared from the charts over here, and from the pop mags and TV, they were for all intents and purposes, gone for good. It wasn't until about '72, when I discovered they had soldiered on successfully in Britain. Such was the world pre-internet. The last song I heard on the radio by the DC5 was 'Everybody Knows'. That would be the end of '67, early '68. It was a nice change of pace for the group, and went over quite well. And then nothing more. From Herman's Hermits, I recall 'I Can Take Or Leave Your Loving' being a middling hit, and then fade to black. Actually, that would be roughly around the same time as the DC5's 'Everybody Knows', so come to think of it, both groups took their leave from the charts here, around the same time. Not sure what was behind the Dave Clark 5 disappearance. As for Herman's Hermits collapse, I did gingerly broach the subject with Lek in '76. He told me the management at MGM (their American label) considered them a spent force, and cut financial promotion of the group, instead bizarrely choosing to use those funds to re-ignite, get this, Connie Francis' dormant career!?! Of course, it was a massive misfire and MGM lost millions in '68-'69. Connie Francis was soon dropped from the label, and The Hermit's American career was toast.
|
|
|
Post by stuball on Jan 3, 2014 18:48:56 GMT
'Lek' deserves to be remembered as a fine guitarist in a top sixties pop group of some standing. I could never understand why Clarkie & Ray Glynn parted company....more 'Clarke-Glynn' songs would have been great, and I feel Clarkie ought to have done more 'Rockers' besides his ballads on his solo albums...and maybe cut out a few of the 'country' songs and other singer/songwriter songs covers that to me never sounded quite appropriate or as if he was that comfortable doing compared to the uptempo Rockers & sincere ballads...I always felt on most of his solo albums Clarkie tried to go in too many differing directions and the albums sounded too much of a 'mixed bag' - his latter more focused original songs albums with just the odd cover but in a more uniform style were all the stronger, plus by then he stopped trying to suppress the 'Hollie in him' allowing some vocal harmonies back in and making the songs sound stronger for it... I'm not sure why the Allan and Ray's relationship came to a close. I tend to wonder if it had anything to do with the album productions themselves. Clarke's first two LPs were self- produced, and Ray Glynn was heavily involved in both. Allan's third album, produced by Roger Cook, had Glynn playing guitar, but no longer, as with Clarke, songwriting. All three records were produced in Britain. Ray disappears from the final three Clarke LPs. All were American productions, produced under the Pasha Organization headed by Spencer Proffer. Quite likely Proffer, as producer, used his own chosen in-house musicians for the job. Not sure if Clarke had any say on what musicians would be booked for the sessions, but I doubt it. Therefore, Ray Glynn, a little-known British- based musician, wouldn't get a look-in. All this is just me musing of course, but while I'm at it, perhaps if Allan had had success with those early LPs, there would have tours which no doubt would have included Ray Glynn as guitarist. I suppose the relationship died through lack of chart success, thus lack of work (touring) and lack of money. And so both men went their separate paths, looking for greener pastures. I too think the latter albums improved. Clarke's songwriting partnership with Gary Benson seemed to add a richness to the songs, and the productions seemed fuller, deeper, to my mind. That said, there was the occasional gem on the early albums as well. Regarding Lek and The Hollies connection: One last 70's memory to relate. One late night we were, as usual, talking music over the ever-present lukewarm Guinness, when Lek asked me, 'What are the greatest three ballads over the past dozen years?'. As I fumbled to come up with a quick answer, Lek exclaimed, 'I'll tell you! He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother, Without You(the Badfinger -composition) and The Air That I Breathe. Think about it! The Hollies own two of the best three ever! It's unbelievable! If for that reason alone, The Hollies should never be dismissed!' Being a Hollies fan of course, and pleased as punch, I agreed. I've often thought about that since: were 'Heavy' and 'Air' among the best three ballads ever? Was Lek right, or was his obvious admiration for The Hollies, clouding his judgment. Perhaps that's something we can bat around for a bit.
|
|
|
Post by gee on Jan 4, 2014 12:31:01 GMT
Certainly He Ain't Heavy and The Air That I Breathe are two of the strongest ballads and two of The Hollies finest recordings
Badfinger's 'Without You' probably deserves equal acclaim thanks to Harry Nilsson's superb cover arranged by Richard Perry - Badfinger's own skelental version was not really suited to their own style ! (they thought that too & both Pete and Tom much preferred the Nilsson cover) while Mariah Carey later totally 'murdered it' in my opinion...
Re Herman's Hermits latter era - I think they got caught in the sixties/seventies change along with alot of others and opted for the more showbiz route of guesting on BBC shows like Morecambe & Wise & the David Jacobs Show etc, doing songs written for them by mainstream pop writers & some European songs that were reasonable pop music if unspectacular compared to their 1964-67 heyday hits (i.e. hits like; 'Sleepy Joe', 'Something is Happening', 'Years May Come, Years May Go' & finally 'Lady Barbara' etc)
a few stood out more like 'Sunshine Girl' and the uncharacteristic; 'Here Comes The Star' plus Hot Chocolate's 'Bet Yer Life I Do'- after that they seemed to have had their day as a group with musical differences surfacing...
I think also that by 1972 Mickie Most with his RAK Records established was more into artists like; Hot Chocolate, C.C.S. (featuring Alexis Korner) & singer/songwriter Duncan Browne (who had a UK hit with 'Journey') plus seventies pop acts like Racey, Mud etc plus the Pop/Rock of Suzi Quantro and Smokie thus after Peter Noone's initial hit with the David Bowie cover both he as a solo artist & the renamed Hermits largely drifted off the pop radar - Noone went into acting...
The Dave Clark Five had also enjoyed a chart resurgence in UK interest when they briefly changed direction & featured guitarist Lenny Davidson singing lead on a Humperdinck styled Les Reed ballad 'Everybody Knows' which hit No.2 in the UK in 1967 - their biggest British hit single since 1964...!
while 'You Got What it Takes' sung by Mike Smith also charted for them in 1967.
Mike Smith sang 'Live in The Sky' in 1967 a UK chart single, but then Lenny also sang; 'No One Can Break A Heart Like You' a minor chart hit in 1968 while Dave Clark surprisingly sang 'The Red Balloon'which got to about No.7 in 1968 and set them up for their final phase of hits
A 'Good Old Rock & Roll' medley sung by Smith plus 'Put A Little Love in Your Heart' were chart hits for them in 1969, and they even managed a couple of further UK chart hits in 1970, a fine driving version of 'Here Comes Summer' (largely sung by Davidson but featuring Mike Smith on the bridge section) and finally 'Everybody Get Together' (featuring Madeline Bell on the singalong chorus conclusion - similar to her singing on The Hollies 'Long Dark Road')
The DC5 folded after that but I think EMI incorrectly credited the cover of Neil Young's 'Southern Man' to them when it was Dave Clark, Mike Smith & Friends who cut a few more singles in the early seventies (did they do an album too ?) - I can recall them on TOTP & a later cover of 'Draggin' The Line' which was good.
Two of their very best singles - 'Try Too Hard' and 'Nineteen Days' (complete with a great 'B' side; 'I Need Love') - both 1966- totally flopped in the UK during a period when their absence concentrating on USA success cost them badly at home as they seemed quickly forgotten (only 'Look Before You Leap' was a minor UK hit that year...) possibly their 'clean cut' rather 'square' looking image - only modified the following year - made them appear both dated and absent costing them recognition at home...only a 'Greatest Hits' album was released by EMI/Columbia that year possibly suggesting the record company also saw them as a 'spent force' as a hit making group...?
Even their 1967 UK album release; 'Everybody Knows...The DC5' was a mono only thrown together mish mash of tracks in differing styles from 1965-67 (even their 1968 album 'Five By Five' was too...again only issued in mono which by 1968 was very odd)
Their FIRST stereo UK studio album was their LAST one - 'If Somebody Loves You' issued in 1970...!
However, the 'slicing through Punk' to effortlessly storm up the UK album charts success of their Polydor compilation '25 Thumping Great Hits' in 1977 suggests they had more fans & appreciation in the UK than the always VERY negative mega critical bigoted British pop music press ever gave them credit for - The DC5 remain probably the MOST undervalued & underrated British pop group of the sixties...tho' they ARE inductees of the American R & R Hall of Fame of course...
If Clark would only oversee a long overdue DECENT re-issue programme of their handful of now quite rare UK albums releasing them on CD for the first time, plus stereo mixes & 'bonus' singles, B Sides, EP tracks & any good unissued tracks...together with the release of the USA albums (with many songs never released in Britain) it might help - but he's rather indifferent to the CD format & sadly The DC5 beyond the odd 'hits' package seems to have scant record of it's very existence available on either CD or vinyl....
|
|
|
Post by stuball on Jan 5, 2014 20:39:01 GMT
Badfinger's 'Without You' probably deserves equal acclaim thanks to Harry Nilsson's superb cover arranged by Richard Perry - Badfinger's own skelental version was not really suited to their own style ! (they thought that too & both Pete and Tom much preferred the Nilsson cover) while Mariah Carey later totally 'murdered it' in my opinion... I thought Nilsson's cover was more than a cut above Badfinger's original. I recall Tom Evans regretting their deliberate rough recording after hearing Harry's fabulous take. Evans claimed that after the critical panning received by their Ivey's 45 'Maybe Tomorrow', with its over-the-top emotional delivery wrapped in strings and lush harmonies, they never wanted to go down that road again. Trouble was, this tune cried out for that big treatment, as Nilsson clearly demonstrated. A missed chance by Badfinger. Couldn't stand Mariah Carey's version. Perhaps I'm showing my age, but over the last couple of decades, when forced to view most female vocalist's videos, I can never decide whether I'm watching a stripper who sings, or a singer who strips. Perhaps a good indicator the song alone can't hold your attention.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2020 7:54:30 GMT
The Dave Clark Five had also enjoyed a chart resurgence in UK interest when they briefly changed direction & featured guitarist Lenny Davidson singing lead on a Humperdinck styled Les Reed ballad 'Everybody Knows' which hit No.2 in the UK in 1967 - their biggest British hit single since 1964...! while 'You Got What it Takes' sung by Mike Smith also charted for them in 1967. Mike Smith sang 'Live in The Sky' in 1967 a UK chart single, but then Lenny also sang; 'No One Can Break A Heart Like You' a minor chart hit in 1968 while Dave Clark surprisingly sang 'The Red Balloon'which got to about No.7 in 1968 and set them up for their final phase of hits A 'Good Old Rock & Roll' medley sung by Smith plus 'Put A Little Love in Your Heart' were chart hits for them in 1969, and they even managed a couple of further UK chart hits in 1970, a fine driving version of 'Here Comes Summer' (largely sung by Davidson but featuring Mike Smith on the bridge section) and finally 'Everybody Get Together' (featuring Madeline Bell on the singalong chorus conclusion - similar to her singing on The Hollies 'Long Dark Road') The DC5 folded after that but I think EMI incorrectly credited the cover of Neil Young's 'Southern Man' to them when it was Dave Clark, Mike Smith & Friends who cut a few more singles in the early seventies (did they do an album too ?) - I can recall them on TOTP & a later cover of 'Draggin' The Line' which was good. Two of their very best singles - 'Try Too Hard' and 'Nineteen Days' (complete with a great 'B' side; 'I Need Love') - both 1966- totally flopped in the UK during a period when their absence concentrating on USA success cost them badly at home as they seemed quickly forgotten (only 'Look Before You Leap' was a minor UK hit that year...) possibly their 'clean cut' rather 'square' looking image - only modified the following year - made them appear both dated and absent costing them recognition at home...only a 'Greatest Hits' album was released by EMI/Columbia that year possibly suggesting the record company also saw them as a 'spent force' as a hit making group...? Even their 1967 UK album release; 'Everybody Knows...The DC5' was a mono only thrown together mish mash of tracks in differing styles from 1965-67 (even their 1968 album 'Five By Five' was too...again only issued in mono which by 1968 was very odd) Their FIRST stereo UK studio album was their LAST one - 'If Somebody Loves You' issued in 1970...! However, the 'slicing through Punk' to effortlessly storm up the UK album charts success of their Polydor compilation '25 Thumping Great Hits' in 1977 suggests they had more fans & appreciation in the UK than the always VERY negative mega critical bigoted British pop music press ever gave them credit for - The DC5 remain probably the MOST undervalued & underrated British pop group of the sixties...tho' they ARE inductees of the American R & R Hall of Fame of course... If Clark would only oversee a long overdue DECENT re-issue programme of their handful of now quite rare UK albums releasing them on CD for the first time, plus stereo mixes & 'bonus' singles, B Sides, EP tracks & any good unissued tracks...together with the release of the USA albums (with many songs never released in Britain) it might help - but he's rather indifferent to the CD format & sadly The DC5 beyond the odd 'hits' package seems to have scant record of it's very existence available on either CD or vinyl.... Does anyone here have, or know where I can purchase, this book on The DC5? PROOF: The Dave Clark Five: The Forgotten Group of the British InvasionIt was only published 2 years ago, but very quickly "disappeared"!
|
|
|
Post by baz on Jul 23, 2020 8:51:10 GMT
Hadn't seen this thread before, so can answer a couple of things. First, the DC5 book was swiftly withdrawn after John Briggs lodged a complaint on two grounds, one being it used his research and interviews without permission and secondly, the author implied that Briggs had co-operated on the book which he hadn't. Briggs is the renowned number one expert on the DC5 who regularly posted on the old "yellow page" forum which grinded to a sudden halt around the time that book was published. A shame as Ron Ryan regularly posted there with many fascinating insights of the early days of the DC5, Ron being the man behind writing some of the early hits which he didn't get any credit for which led to Dave Clark banishing him out of his and the band's life. Briggs was scathing about the book and said it contained nothing that hadn't been published before.
Back in the original post here, the mention of an April 1966 Simon and Garfunkel recording session The Hollies "dropped in" on caught my eye and had me checking my records. I have no such record of any S+G recording dates in April 1966. The nearest date there is is on 28th March - their first session in 1966 - when they recorded "Flowers Never Bend With The Rainfall" and their next session was for a demo of "Patterns" on 7th June and the master of that song was recorded the following day. Maybe they did witness a session by them for an advertising jingle or something like that, but from the dates I have, unlikely to be an official Columbia Records session. Like The Hollies, S+G worked very fast until the following year when their new superstar status meant they had the luxury of extra time to overdub and embellish recordings.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2020 11:12:18 GMT
Briggs was scathing about the book and said it contained nothing that hadn't been published before. And there lies the problem: nothing has been published before in a DC5 book. Briggs should write his own book, but until anything else is available I'd love to read this one.
|
|
|
Post by thejanitor on Jul 23, 2020 12:23:41 GMT
I have been told in Bobby's book, he tells a story about Dennis Wilson being present at a Hollies show and afterwards, telling Peter Asher who was there something along the lines of "are all the drummers in England this good?" which made Bobby feel honoured. I don't know whether this was in the UK or US and don't have the book so one of you might need to confirm about this.
|
|