The Hollies and The Beatles

[eric]

The above review of The Hollies “20 Golden Greats” LP in the 15 July 1978 edition of Melody Maker starts with the statement that “John Lennon used to hate the Hollies”. The record reviewer also notes that “Lennon didn’t care for the way
Graham Nash kept shooting his mouth off” and that Lennon “particularly didn’t like the flashy way they dressed”!


These comments have caused me to question the nature and extent of the relationship, if any, between The Hollies and The Beatles. I have read many books and articles on The Beatles and even though both bands had parallel careers, recorded in the same recording studio, were on the same record label, etc. there is barely a mention of The Hollies from The Beatles world.


On page 68 of the 370 page The Beatles Anthology, the only reference to The Hollies is made by Paul McCartney. He states that “The Hollies came to see us once and came back two weeks later looking like us! We were in black turtleneck sweaters and John had his harmonica and we were doing our R&B material. The next week The Hollies had turtleneck sweaters and a harmonica in their act.” McCartney went onto say that “So we (The Beatles) were a big influence on these people”. Apparently, there was no need to make any further reference to The Hollies even though they were a significant UK “competitor”, albeit a much lesser one on the international stage.


If anyone can help, I would be interested to know if there is any substance to the above comments in the Melody Maker LP review and what was the relationship like between the two bands?


For example, is there documented evidence of mutual musical respect?


We know The Hollies recorded “If I Needed Someone”, the George Harrison song taken up by The Beatles. What is the true story of George’s view on The Hollies treatment of his song? Was there a verbal stoush between the bands over this recording at that time?


I have read that Dhani Harrison (son of George) and Paul Hicks (son of Tony) were childhood friends, and later in the band thenewno2 together. This suggests there may have been some relationship between George and Tony along the way, hopefully a friendly one for the lead guitarists.

Attachments:

[gee]

John Lennon used to shoot his mouth off at EVERYONE - especially if he felt they might be some kind of 'threat' !

Hollies, Dusty Spring field, Tom Jones, Billy J.Kramer, The Rolling Stones,Tommy Cooper (who almost beat up Lennon after John insulted his Wife -  poor Mal Evans having to offer himself up as the 'punchbag' to shield Lennon !)

The Kinks Ray Davies told Lennon where to get off in Blackpool in 1965

John would later sheepishly make a form of his own 'apology' by either offering a new song or namechecking and praising up the subject of his outspoken insults later - in Dusty's case he called her the greatest UK female singer, Tommy Cooper was namechecked in 'Give Peace A Chance' and Lennon praised up The Hollies 'Hey Willy' in 1971 saying it would 'shoot up the charts like a rocket' - which proved the kiss of death on it as it then stalled in the UK chart !

Lennon namechecked The Hollies a few times later too - even in his last interview with Andy Peebles in 1980

The Hollies took over The Beatles residency at the Cavern Club in 1963 when The Fab Four relocated - with some unforgiving Liverpudlian acrimony - down to London. The Hollies proved massively popular with the Liverpool crowd (a time they first met young Terry Sylvester of The Escorts who became a friend)

so maybe the 'Anti Hollies' comments by John and Paul might have some root in the fact they had been succeeded back in their home town, while The Beatles were then taking some native flak for 'deserting' Liverpool (?) - some Liverpudlians were still angered by the Pete Best affair (George got his eye blacked by one irate fan then !)

it may have looked as if The Hollies were copying The Beatles re the black polo necked outfits - but OTHERS had the look too - Manfred Mann did while the harmonica was certainly NOT exclusive to The Beatles - Brian Locking was playing one for The Shadows on their second album 'Out of The Shadows' (on 'Bo Diddley') released in 1962 BEFORE 'Love Me' Do' came out

so if anything Lennon was copying The Shadows there himself !

certainly the three guitar front line was The Shadows (UK) and The Ventures (USA) line up in 1958-59 a few years before The Beatles were formed...

Allan Clarke had a harmonica early on as did many groups - The Stones (Brian Jones), Manfreds (Paul Jones), Moody Blues (Ray Thomas) etc...

Bobby has said Allan and Graham once helped John and Paul re lyrics ideas to a song they were then writing while Brian Epstein met The Hollies on a train journey and bought them all lunch !

the 'If I Needed Someone' affair was that Beatles producer George Martin suggested the song to Ron Richards - Clarke was all for it, Nash dead against it fearing it possibly put The Hollies 'in The Beatles shadow' somewhat re needing their help re songs

Nash was overruled and the cover climbed duly up the charts - only for George Harrison to be caught by a UK music journalist Alan Smith (I think) just before going onstage in Glasgow I think - Smith caught a clearly unprepared Harrison at a bad time, pre-show and pre-his forthcoming wedding to Patti Boyd and apparently asked him if he'd written IINS especially for The Hollies ?

- which immediately got George's back up and he snapped he had not and that he didn't like the cover at all (shooting himself in the foot royalty wise) and went on to call The Hollies 'souless sessionmen'

although what nobody ever seems to recall was that George also said;
'The Hollies are very good at what they do...'

the unkind and inaccurate 'souless sessionmen' dig  was probably because The Hollies arrived pre-rehearsed at Abbey Road, nailed a hit single fast ('Bus Stop' in 45 minutes !) and George saw them going off to the local pub The Abbey Tavern

George was then unaware The Hollies worked differently to his band, who enjoyed far more studio time and freedom under George Martin - and it seems Lennon often 'went wrong' on his own lyrics - as 'Antholgy' showed - so maybe The Beatles umpteen takes were through doing more errors (?) - 'Thank You Girl' they never got right and George Martin and his engineer edited the 'B' side together from various broken down takes in the end...

so young George made his unwise comments - the UK music press had a field day, The Hollies single of IINS stalled at no.20 in the charts as a result - EMI would have been furious as both bands were theirs !!

Lennon made some snide remarks - but Graham Nash hit back at both John and George asking would George be giving all his royalties away to a charity ??

at his pre-wedding press conference George was asked if he'd invited the Hollies ? (to press laughter) - a miffed George GLARED at Smith and replied; 'yeah I wish you hadn't said that...'

Paul McCartney later smoothed things over when he was amazed at Nash's high voice on 'I Can't Let Go' and The Hollies were invited onto various Beatles radio shows and Xmas show as guests

Paul and Graham Nash became friends - Nash was in the crowd of 'Beatle friends' singing on 'All You Need is Love'

Simon & Marjike aka 'The Fool' did the 'Evolution' cover...then worked on 'Sgt Pepper' innsersleeve art further drawing the bands together

Bobby has said the same Indian musicians who played on George's Indian Beatles tracks played on 'Maker' and later 'Seperated'

while the moog synth' used on 'Abbey Road' was used on Tony's 'Don't Give Up Easily' on 'Hollies Sing Hollies'

probably the mellotron on 'Wings' was the same EMI one The Beatles used too

both bands often wandered into watch others sessions to observe and Paul  sought out Tony Hicks for a 'first listen' opinion - notably re 'Abbey Road'

Paul and Linda McCartney loaned The Hollies their distinctive 'Band on The Run' moog synth' for the track 'Another Night' in 1975

George and Tony were later neighbours and Tony's son Paul Hicks became close friends with George and Dhanni Harrison

the two bands seem to have got on o.k. from 1966 onwards, and by 1967 were on good terms (EMI may have pressured both not to be bickering thus hurting potential sales)

Graham Nash was on of the first to 'stand up' to John Lennon and not take his remarks without giving back....and they later became friends so I think Lennon remembered that he'd been ungracious to The Hollies hence later his praise for 'Hey Willy' and a few interview 'namechecks' of The Hollies by John, even as late as 1980

[christocello]

To put it short, the Beatles in their heighdays didn't care much about the Hollies, while the Hollies may have have suffered from the Beatles' unbeatable success.

Look at the early footage of the first Hollies' visit in the U.S. when they perform "Too much monkey business". In one of the verses Graham suddenly changes to "I feel fine" - as a kind of cabaret joke - IMHO this reflects the constant pressure of trying to play in the same league but never really arriving there (with the exception of just one No. 1 single in early '65).

After George Harrison's bashing of the Hollies' rendition of his "If I needed someone", Paul McCartney probably tried to reconcile with the Hollies, when he praised Graham Nash's singing on "I can't let go" a few weeks later.

Graham Nash, I suppose, tried his best to follow the Beatles' footsteps, so he also went "psychedelic" after the Beatles started with it; then he attended the broadcasting of "All you need is love" but the other Hollies didn't want to follow this drug induced path for some good reasons.

In 1971 John Lennon praised the new Hollies' sound on "Hey Willy", so I doubt if he notoriously hated the Hollies.

A later borrowing of Maccas synthesizer to the Hollies when they recorded "Another Night" gets sometimes mentioned in the literature, but this says just that Alan and Paul got along with each other around 1975.

George and Tony to my knowledge have been neighbours from the 70s on in Henley-on-thames, so the dissence from 1965 over "If I needed someone" probably didn't last very long, especially when you look upon the (much later developing) friendship of Paul Hicks and Dhani Harrison.

The Hollies' management sometimes has tried to draw comparisons between the two bands, when it referred to the promotional advertising that the Hollies had more Top 20-Hits than the Fab Four.

So this is my personal view of the Beatles-Hollies-relations. I'm sure, Gee will disagree with some of my points ... ;-)

[christocello]

Oh - that's a funny coincidence: Gee and myself writing at the same time. My compliments to Gee regarding the amount of well researched facts!

[gee]

I do think John Lennon WAS - quite absurdly - worried about the perceived 'opposition' just as much later in the seventies post Beatles re his silly  jibes at Paul, trying to outdo Paul...even Paul's 'Coming Up' forcing John to get back..into songwriting as he LIKED Paul's song !!

John had a go at many of the other bands - The Stones and Mick Jagger got it even worse than the Hollies...yet John duly performed at their Rock and Roll Circus in 1968 and John & Paul sang harmonies on The Stones 'We Love You' in 1967

Ray Davies was delighted when The Kinks 'Sunny Afternoon' kicked 'Paperback Writer' off no.1 in the UK in 1966....!

Lennon later jokingly admitted to Bob Harris he was;
'always shooting my mouth off...'

but when he 'had a go' at Jesus...he came unstuck !

The Nash verse on 'Too Much Monkey Business' was an audience in-joke that varied, sometimes Nash sang 'It's Been a Hard Day's Night...' or The Lovin' Spoonful's 'what a day for a daydream...' instead - while Clarke would do a snippet of The Who; 'people try to put us down...'



I think The Hollies 'All The World is Love' was actually written before The Beatles did their psychedelic tripping...

while The Hollies used taped sound effects on 'Too Many People'(mono version) in 1965 the year before The Beatles did on 'Yellow Submarine' in 1966 so it wasn't always a case of The Hollies supposedly trying to 'catch up' - The Beatles were just as 'influenced' by other artists as any !

things like featuring banjo, bells, tinkling piano, gongs, tubas, heavily echoed guitars,heavily echoed tambourine, heavy metal guitar solos etc The Hollies did either before The Beatles or at least around the same time (i.e. 'Would You Believe' Parlophone PMC/PCS 7008 - 'Revolver' Parlophone PMC/PCS 7009 , then 'Evolution' Parlophone PMC/PCS 7022, 'Sgt Pepper' Parlophone PMC/PCS 7027)

while The Hollies used additional accompaniment in a completely different manner to The Beatles and their songs such as 'When I Come Home To You', 'Pay You Back With Interest',  or 'Oriental Sadness' saw key changes and tempo variations at odd tangents that had jazz style improvisational aspects that were unlike anything The Beatles were doing...the two bands were of a similar overall style but were also quite different in many ways

re others influencing the Fab Four it was Mike Leander's distinctive strings on Marianne Faithful's Decca recordings that prompted Paul to get him to do 'She's Leaving Home' in 1967

The Hollies namechecked 'Lovely Rita Meter Maid' in 'Do The Best You Can' in 1968 but I think it was a case of all the group's nodding salutes to each other rather than some idea of all trying to compete or outdo all the time

The Beatles were often first to do things innovation wise - but NOT always and they copied others too, notably The Beach Boys on 'Back in The USSR' and The Fourmost on Got To Get You into My Life' (re the brass section) and 'Lady Madonna' (re the vocal bridge section)

[stuball]

Surprising isn't it, that the two later 'Love and Peace' Beatles, John and George, were in their early days the cantankerous pair? As opposed to Ringo, happy-go-lucky, just pleased as punch to be here, and Paul, ever the diplomat. But George and John were often very deliberately cutting and caustic in their comments, and not just to the press.

[eric]

Thank you Gee and Christocello for your extensive and insightful comments. Your efforts are very much appreciated.

[cameron]

The Hollies wrote "All The World Is Love" a good six months before the Beatles recorded "All You Need Is Love". It was finished in late 1966 and recorded in January 1967, I think "All You Need Is Love" was recorded in June 1967, so exactly six months later. The Hollies and Beatles shared the orchestra for "She's Leaving Home" and all the tracks on "Evolution". I believe the Beatles wrapped up their track early and listened to the Hollies recording when they moved out. There were two other occasions during the Pepper/Evolution sessions where both bands shared the studio.

Allan and Graham also contributed a few words to "Misery" back in 1963 when they met up with the Beatles on tour. Graham also wrote out the words to "Anna (Go To Him)" for John before their mammoth Please Please Me session as Lennon struggled to remember them.

I think the interesting point is that the Beatles thought that the Hollies "followed them" when it wasn't always the case. Bobby Elliott in particular was very fastidious in the studio with his drum sounds, having studied American records carefully. He was having extra microphones on the drums as early as 1964 with "Here I Go Again" whereas the Beatles claimed to "pioneer" this on Revolver, two years later! Also valid points with Tony's 'shredding' guitar on "Hard Hard Year" and the tape effects on "Too Many People" etc... The Beatles got worse as they went on. By the White Album, they reached their first 100 take song with 'Helter Skelter'. I think I read that the final take of 'Something' was something like 41. It took them hours, sometimes days or even weeks to finish tracks, whereas the Hollies would rattle a few off per session because they were a much tighter band.

Graham Nash was very friendly with Brian Epstein around 1966/7, with Epstein giving Graham an advance tape copy of 'Sgt. Pepper' in 1967.

Paul McCartney's last seen public outing with Jane Asher was to the Hollies' headlining concert at the Lewisham Odeon in 1968 that was issued on the 'Clarke Hicks & Nash Years' CD. Though it's possible he was there to support his brother Mike "McGear" who was a member of The Scaffold who supported the Hollies on that tour.

Tony Hicks was one of the first people to hear "Abbey Road" as Paul McCartney wanted his honest opinion on it - and Hicks rarely held back on that! I read a 1967 Australian interview once where he laughed when the interviewer asked what he thought of the Monkees and said: "I can't believe they're still going, they're a joke". Obviously they never saw it as they eagerly awaited watching the Hollies at the Whiskey A Go-Go on Valentine's Day, 1968!

As an aside - Hollies producer Ron Richards co-produced the Beatles' first session with George Martin I believe.

[gee]

yes it was Ron Richards who got in session drummer Andy White and relegated Ringo to tambourine for the LP version of 'Love Me Do' that was later on the 'red' 1962-66 double album

- Ringo (jokingly later but 'miffed' at the time) never 'forgave' George Martin for that but it was Ron who didn't rate Ringo - just as he didn't rate Don Rathbone in The Hollies either !

interesting on the 'Anthology' when George Martin gets something wrong and apologises to The Beatles from the booth George mutters into a mike; 'does anyone know if Ron Richards is doing anything ?' - Martin replies 'I heard that' ! - it's banter not serious


Bobby said Paul was overdubbing the bach trumpet on 'Penny Lane' the day they recorded 'On A Carousel' in the next studio so they were very close working alongside each other

Later in 1969 George Harrison gave new Hollie Terry Sylvester a hug at Abbey Road and said; 'congratulations on your new boast !'

Terry had worked as a panel beater for George's brother in Liverpool when he was just 14 years old

so the ties between Beatles and Hollies were actually quite strong mainly due to both being EMI's Parlophone groups and George Martin & Ron Richards being associates - they co-produced Gerry and The Pacemakers (their first album linear notes by Tony Barrow state that) and later teamed with John Burgess (Manfred Mann,Freddie & The Dreamers etc) and Decca's Peter Sullivan (Tom Jones, Englebert, etc) to form AIR studios where The Hollies recorded 'Distant Light' in 1971

[eric]

Thank you Stuball, Cameron and Gee (again) for your comments. I hope Bobby has included all of the foregoing matters (and more) in his forthcoming book!

[gee]

that bit about Paul claiming The Hollies copied The Beatles image made me smile - The Beatles certainly wern't above copying other artists look and ideas !


I only recall The Hollies like Manfred Mann adopting the polo neck sweater look very briefly - none of their albums depicted that look, they had the smart stage suits, or everyday casual look, then went psychedelic (as almost everyone did in 1967) then via the white suits and the (naff I thought) lacey shirts look went back to the smart casual look for 'Confessions...' and 'Hollies Greatest vol 2' etc

re individual look Graham Nash actually had his whiskers on 'For Certain Because...' in late 1966 (and Mike Love likewise in The Beach Boys on 'Pet Sounds' cover) the year before The Beatles grew their whiskers for Sgt Pepper in 1967 - so in that respect members of both Hollies and Beach Boys were ahead of The Fab Four - yes ?

The Beatles image was dictated for Sgt Pepper to a degree - John Lennon's shorter hair was required for his part as Private Gripweed in Dick Lester's film; 'How I Won The War' (hence; 'I saw a film today oh boy the English Army had just won the war...')

while Paul's bike accident costing him an upper front tooth was the reason he couldn't shave for a short while and grew his moustache (also why Mal Evans stood back to camera in the foreground, to hide his much greater height over the other three, wearing Paul's blue uniform in the back cover pic of Sgt Pepper while Paul was at the dentist getting his crown - which fell out many years later at daughter Stella's fashion show when he bit into a bagle ! lol)

George and Ringo then copied the new look

so their shorter haired whiskered 1967 image was as a result of a couple of things that dictated it as much as anything profound - tho' Graham Nash and Mike Love had both opted to update their look in 1966

it could also be stated that while Klaus Voorman's pencil sketch of the fab four on 'Revolver' was mega arty etc - of course - The Hollies also had pencil sketched faces on 'Would You Believe ?' album

both came out together again tho' The Hollies certainly were not copying The Beatles as their album actually was one Parlophone release before 'Revolver' and not after - it's just a co-incidence

I recall MUCH was made of how 'arty' the 'half lighted half shaded' Beatles look was for 'With The Beatles' in 1963

- tho' The Shadows had used that same idea earlier for their second album 'Out of The Shadows' cover photo a year before The Beatles in 1962...!

[stuball]

Reading the above clipping took me right back to the '70's and the endless stream of articles on The Hollies, composed largely of putdowns and sneering backhanded compliments. This Ray Coleman definitely checked all the boxes: 'sugary pop', 'antiseptic', too similar' and of course the ultimate insult, 'product'. Then he parades the beloved and holy icon of the period, Lennon, to confirm and bless the fact that The Hollies are crap.

I've often thought reviewers like this character, wrote their snide commentary as much for the approval of other critics as for the general public: to confirm they were on the team and had all their bonafides in order. I believe today that's known as 'virtue signalling',

No wonder back then it was considered a brave thing, or a very stupid thing, depending on your point of view, to admit in public you were a massive Hollies fan!

[gee]

that would be the same Ray Coleman who wrote two books on John Lennon ?

a vested financial angle perhaps ?

yes the music media often patted each other on the back re who it was deemed 'acceptable' to like or dislike, who was 'cool' and who not etc....

well The Everly Brothers, The Rolling Stones, Paul Simon, Jimi Hendrix, 'Mitch' Mitchell, Jack Bruce, Eric Clapton, John Paul Jones, Jimmy Page, Elton John, Steve Stills, Michelle Phillips, Alan Parsons, Rod Argent, Klaus Voorman, Bruce Springsteen, John Miles, Labi Siffre, Gary Brooker, B.J.Wilson, Alan Parker, Nicky Hopkins, Nils Loftgren, Brian May, Paul Weller, Phil Collins, Cozy Powell and standing applauding at that Hall of Fame induction show Barry & Robin Gibb at least all deemed The Hollies of some standing to either listen to, seek out, befriend,  or perform with...


whatever Ray Coleman and his lot chose to believe ......