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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 16:50:48 GMT
At its worse, it meant that one channel sounded bassy and muffled while the other sounded trebley and tinny. Really horrible.
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Post by baz on Jun 23, 2020 21:28:42 GMT
What actually is/was "electronically-processed stereo"? I seem to recall The Move box set of a decade or so ago had such tracks on it as well. They sounded 'sparse'. There were various versions of it, and various record companies had their preferred methods. In the mid 60's Capitol had the horrendous "duophonic" where they'd split the mono signal, apply delays and EQ effects to each channel so it ended up sounding almost like something played in a bathroom. The crudest form PeterC mentioned was the quickest and easiest, one that EMI used a lot, slashing bass frequencies from one channel and pumping them up in the other. The worst use of it was on some US "greatest hits" package of The Kinks from the mid 60's... never heard it myself but all reports on it I recall are ones of horror and dismay. Another form can be heard on The Hollies' "20 Golden Greats" on "Yes I Will" and I've heard a similar treatment applied to "If I Needed Someone" which was more narrowed. The biggest problem for me is how it totally screws up the dynamics of the original recording. Play an original mono 45, it jumps out at you but reprocess it, it sucks the balls and life out of it making it sound like a parody of the original version. Sadly this practice makes the acquisition of compilations/reissues from the late 60's and 70's perilous as they were aimed to cash in on the stereo market. Fortunately, sense finally prevailed and it was quietly phased out towards the end of the 70's. Unfortunately, decades later in the CD age, some of them have been used on reissue packages. Indeed, The Move boxset was bogged down by a handful of them and if you have the proper mono versions, check each out and you'll hear just how horrible the fake stereo versions are. Utterly unlistenable for me and those tracks ruined what was otherwise a fine boxset as what was the point of these "alternate" mixes when they could and should had just stuck with the better sounding mono?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2020 8:02:10 GMT
Here's a good example of just how bad it could be:
... and here's how it should sound:
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Post by baz on Jun 24, 2020 12:41:38 GMT
Another worrying factor is that in the 1970's some record companies actually ditched their mono masters leaving nothing but the stereo or fake stereo tapes. One classic case of this was Jimi Hendrix's "Stone Free" - the mono master vanished in the 70's and every reissue has used the horrible fake stereo version created in 1968 as that's the only "master" they have left. Dunhill Records definitely trashed their mono tapes which is unfortunate as a lot of The Mamas and The Papas songs sound horrible in stereo and are mostly superior in their mono mixes, so any mono reissues have either been fold downs of the stereo which is not true mono or needledrops from 45's and 33's.
A lot of Elvis's Sun tapes were wiped in the late 50's - RCA took delivery of them, futzed around with many making new copies and yep, the modified tapes are what remain so the only way to hear some of those songs in their purest form are from needledrops of the original 45's or 78's... and too often where needledrops are concerned, they get subjected to denoising which destroys some of the dynamics. It's fair to say that record companies have not always been the best custodians of their archives - witness the Atlantic Records fire in the 70's which destroyed all session tapes and outtakes and the Universal fire in 2008 in which the entire works of Buddy Holly were destroyed along with hundreds of other well known acts. Pye Records' tape archive ended up in a terrible mess as well, being stored in a building which had roof damage causing many tapes to be ireparably damaged by rain or bird poo. Fortunately for The Hollies, the Abbey Road tape library is renowned for being secure and well looked after in spite of the mass cull in 1971 and 1972 where tons of multitracks were junked.
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Post by JamesT on Jun 25, 2020 8:29:03 GMT
Here's a good example of just how bad it could be: ... and here's how it should sound: Horrendous! Could always have the Royal Philharmonic add some strings to make it sound even worse!
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Post by cameron on Jun 27, 2020 22:32:42 GMT
It blows my mind just how many archives have had fires. Tape isn’t even known for being especially flammable! I’m sure it’s an insurance job...
The Hollies were extremely blessed to have been with EMI, and we’re blessed that they were too lazy to take the tapes home, like many artists did who owned their own masters. I’m sure the masters for “Odessey and Oracle” by the Zombies and a fair few masters for “S. F. Sorrow” were taken home by band members and stored in their lofts for 40+ years untouched. Virtually every moment of the Hollies at Abbey Road survives apart from a select few pre-1966 tapes.
I’m not sure what the situation with the Tremeloes is, they seem reluctant to do new stereo mixes. Though there were one or two during their last reissue campaign in 2000. I was disappointed that ‘Right Wheel, Left Hammer, Sham’ was remixed from an alternative version, which was lacking the power of the original. Though to get ‘Call Me Number One’ in stereo was nice. Curiously, a lot of the new rarities and lost tracks were included in mono, presumably from their original early/demo mono mixes. You’d have thought they’d have gone in at some point and remixed the big hits, if the tapes survive...
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Post by dirtyfaz on Jun 27, 2020 23:29:25 GMT
Obviously not too much happening in the Hollies world.
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Post by baz on Jun 28, 2020 8:44:08 GMT
The Hollies were extremely blessed to have been with EMI, and we’re blessed that they were too lazy to take the tapes home, like many artists did who owned their own masters. I’m sure the masters for “Odessey and Oracle” by the Zombies and a fair few masters for “S. F. Sorrow” were taken home by band members and stored in their lofts for 40+ years untouched. Virtually every moment of the Hollies at Abbey Road survives apart from a select few pre-1966 tapes. The Zombies' "Odessey" multitracks are owned by the band themselves and bassist Chris White has them thanks to the fact they paid for the sessions as a non-EMI act. That was another major source of tape loss in the 70's as tapes owned by independent companies got junked by majors - apparently, the majors would hold on to the tapes for ten years then the independent company would be allowed to reclaim them. Guess what happened? Many indie companies either forgot or didn't get notified their tapes were ready for collection. Twinkle - who did "Terry" and "Golden Lights" - said that was what happened with her Decca masters, her manager never reclaimed her masters and by the time she found out, it was too late. The Pretty Things were very unlucky where Abbey Road was concerned as it appears no multitracks survive from their time at EMI as they were either recycled for further use back in the day (the fate of most Manfred Mann EMI multis as even by 1966 most were gone) or were casualties of the infamous tape library cull in 1971/1972. They do have the mixed down 2 track masters along with some alternate and pre-mixes of some tracks which were once talked about for use on an "S.F. Sorrow" project but nothing happened with that. Unfortunately, they have an anti-stereo stance - bassist Wally Waller has stated there should be a law against mixing 4 track tapes into stereo. They do have multitracks from their Fontana era, and sure enough, no stereo mixes have been made from them which is a pity as a vintage mix of "Don't Bring Me Down" which appeared on a cheapo compilation in the 70's sounds great. The Tremeloes situation is more open to interpretation. On a forum I was part of 15 years ago the topic of stereo mixes came up and one member had spoken with Chip Hawkes about it some years before. Chip said they had gotten all their tapes from CBS but they hadn't considered even making new stereo mixes as they saw no point in it! So, I'm guessing the Tremeloes likely have 4 and 8 track tapes but have only permitted random ones to be mixed into stereo and some remain missing/lost presumed wiped.
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Post by cameron on Jun 29, 2020 8:02:50 GMT
The Tremeloes are a completely forgotten group of the 1960s sadly, outside of their four big hits, although ‘Call Me Number One’ still gets overlooked, it’s the “big three” from 1967 that still get played on the radio. It’s a shame because there’s a lot of great music there. It’s a shame they got far too big-headed in 1968 and went off on a tangent with a long run of unsuccessful singles and a ridiculous “oldies” album that CBS thought so little of that they didn’t issue it in the UK. This was around the time of the “music for morons” remark, which I think cost them their career. Coupled with turning ‘Yellow River’, which Chip Hawkes since said was their single biggest mistake, citing that they should have “put pride aside and released it”, as it would have ensured their success/interest into the next decade.
Having said that, a lot of their 1970s output is really good. The 1950s sound finally made a comeback in the glam rock era, and ‘Blue Suede Tie’ was absolutely perfect, if not perhaps a year or two too early. Also the LP ‘Shiner’ on the DJM label is really consistently good. The follow up ‘Don’t Let The Music Die’ (originally attributed to the group ‘Space’ without the involvement from Chip Hawkes) was good but not perfect. I think they suffered in the same way that the Hollies did in that they didn’t have a strong producer who would guide them accurately through their success. The Tremeloes seemed to retain full artistic control from around 1968 onwards, which was fine, but so many mistakes were made. I genuinely believe the Beatles’ success is at least 50% down to George Martin pushing them in the right direction. When you analyse many of his contributions, ranging from a chord change suggestion to a full blown orchestral score, the role of a great producer is so clear and as important as the band themselves. Bands have the raw talent, but it needs nurturing and extracting to get the best out of them. There’s virtually no artist on the planet who has great success self-producing.
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Post by baz on Jun 29, 2020 9:21:39 GMT
The Tremeloes are a completely forgotten group of the 1960s sadly, outside of their four big hits, although ‘Call Me Number One’ still gets overlooked, it’s the “big three” from 1967 that still get played on the radio. It’s a shame because there’s a lot of great music there. It’s a shame they got far too big-headed in 1968 and went off on a tangent with a long run of unsuccessful singles and a ridiculous “oldies” album that CBS thought so little of that they didn’t issue it in the UK. This was around the time of the “music for morons” remark, which I think cost them their career. Coupled with turning ‘Yellow River’, which Chip Hawkes since said was their single biggest mistake, citing that they should have “put pride aside and released it”, as it would have ensured their success/interest into the next decade. There is no denying or escaping that the "music for morons" remark irreparably damaged The Tremeloes' career. I believe that was made around the time "Me and My Life" was a hit and after that, they never troubled the UK singles chart again so it was a spectacular fall from grace as otherwise, they looked all certain to continue their run of success into the 70's. What is weird/sad is how 1970 marked the end of the road or the chart careers for a few solid acts from the 1960's - The Beatles, Herman's Hermits, The Dave Clark Five, The Tremeloes, Amen Corner/Fairweather, Dozy Beaky Mick and Tich, Love Affair/LA, Simon and Garfunkel, Eric Burdon, Jimi Hendrix, The Beach Boys, The Monkees, not forgetting Dusty Springfield who subtly and infamously "came out" around the same time of the "music for morons" remark! The Hollies managed to last out until 1974 despite the dip during the Rickfors era. True, The Beach Boys continued and did have some smaller hits and released some great albums afterwards but their singles success would never be the same as "Kokomo" was like a freak bolt out the blue. The Tremeloes re-emerged and reunited in 1982 or 1983 with "Words" which sold well in parts of Europe but ignored in the UK as by then they were firmly an "oldies" act.
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Post by sandy on Jun 29, 2020 13:25:24 GMT
The Tremeloes are a completely forgotten group of the 1960s sadly, outside of their four big hits, although ‘Call Me Number One’ still gets overlooked, it’s the “big three” from 1967 that still get played on the radio. It’s a shame because there’s a lot of great music there. It’s a shame they got far too big-headed in 1968 and went off on a tangent with a long run of unsuccessful singles and a ridiculous “oldies” album that CBS thought so little of that they didn’t issue it in the UK. This was around the time of the “music for morons” remark, which I think cost them their career. Coupled with turning ‘Yellow River’, which Chip Hawkes since said was their single biggest mistake, citing that they should have “put pride aside and released it”, as it would have ensured their success/interest into the next decade. There is no denying or escaping that the "music for morons" remark irreparably damaged The Tremeloes' career. I believe that was made around the time "Me and My Life" was a hit and after that, they never troubled the UK singles chart again so it was a spectacular fall from grace as otherwise, they looked all certain to continue their run of success into the 70's. What is weird/sad is how 1970 marked the end of the road or the chart careers for a few solid acts from the 1960's - The Beatles, Herman's Hermits, The Dave Clark Five, The Tremeloes, Amen Corner/Fairweather, Dozy Beaky Mick and Tich, Love Affair/LA, Simon and Garfunkel, Eric Burdon, Jimi Hendrix, The Beach Boys, The Monkees, not forgetting Dusty Springfield who subtly and infamously "came out" around the same time of the "music for morons" remark! The Hollies managed to last out until 1974 despite the dip during the Rickfors era. True, The Beach Boys continued and did have some smaller hits and released some great albums afterwards but their singles success would never be the same as "Kokomo" was like a freak bolt out the blue. The Tremeloes re-emerged and reunited in 1982 or 1983 with "Words" which sold well in parts of Europe but ignored in the UK as by then they were firmly an "oldies" act. Much as we talk about lack of large scale commercial success by the Hollies after 74, what you said about many artists also of high calibre not surviving the 70's makes it actually brilliant that they did survive. Pop music is very fickle, and each turn of a new decade makes the previous decade seem like another age to many- very symbolic.The seventies wanted nothing to do with the sixties. So The Hollies surviving that, albeit with less volume of commercial success, and sometimes not helping themselves with choices to release, did, and indeed are doing very well indeed!
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Post by gee on Jun 29, 2020 14:10:21 GMT
yeah a big factor was the prejudice of some radio disc jockeys and stations who 'decided' an artist was old hat or passe and only played / plugged 'new new new' !!!
veteran acts like Chicago got dropped by CBS only to come back at Warners with a vengeance but such revivals were rare and as time when on even artists like Status Quo and Cliff Richard ultimately met the same attitude that many of the surviving sixties bands faced in the early seventies
I recall Graham Gouldman saying how after Eric Stewart recovered from his bad car crash they reformed 10cc but it wasn't the same - he said 'it was as if our time had passed...'
some acts enjoyed a rare later hit or two such as The Kinks with 'Come Dancing' but there were also time periods when The 'Godfathers of punk' Kinks were also considered 'persona non gratia' by DJ's and music critics - I recall one name Radio One DJ saying it was time The Kinks split up !
CSN were considered a 'joke' in the UK later too...
so often it's not how good you are or how great your music is...but if you are seen as being 'acceptable' by the media machine
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Post by baz on Jun 29, 2020 14:29:29 GMT
so often it's not how good you are or how great your music is...but if you are seen as being 'acceptable' by the media machine I do remember uproars when "wonderful" Radio One refused to play Cliff Richard and Status Quo in the 1990's then in 1996 even The Beatles when they released "Real Love" - always a snobbish elitist element within the BBC. John Peel expressed disgust with either Noel Edmonds or Dave Lee Travis when they admitted they rarely played records at home nor were fans of the music they played!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 14:34:46 GMT
One thing worth mentioning with The Tremeloes is that no less than three of their offspring went on to become successful pop stars during the '90s: Chip Hawkes' son Chesney, who topped the UK charts with 'The One and Only' and also had 5 other hits, and Brian Poole's daughters Karen and Shelly, who had 9 hits as 'Alisha's Attic', and have both gone on to become highly successful songwriters for other artists. How many other 60s acts can boast that?!
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Post by Mevrouw Bee on Jun 29, 2020 14:44:14 GMT
The Tremeloes are a completely forgotten group of the 1960s sadly, outside of their four big hits, although ‘Call Me Number One’ still gets overlooked, it’s the “big three” from 1967 that still get played on the radio. It’s a shame because there’s a lot of great music there. It’s a shame they got far too big-headed in 1968 and went off on a tangent with a long run of unsuccessful singles and a ridiculous “oldies” album that CBS thought so little of that they didn’t issue it in the UK. This was around the time of the “music for morons” remark, which I think cost them their career. Coupled with turning ‘Yellow River’, which Chip Hawkes since said was their single biggest mistake, citing that they should have “put pride aside and released it”, as it would have ensured their success/interest into the next decade. There is no denying or escaping that the "music for morons" remark irreparably damaged The Tremeloes' career. I believe that was made around the time "Me and My Life" was a hit and after that, they never troubled the UK singles chart again so it was a spectacular fall from grace as otherwise, they looked all certain to continue their run of success into the 70's. What is weird/sad is how 1970 marked the end of the road or the chart careers for a few solid acts from the 1960's - The Beatles, Herman's Hermits, The Dave Clark Five, The Tremeloes, Amen Corner/Fairweather, Dozy Beaky Mick and Tich, Love Affair/LA, Simon and Garfunkel, Eric Burdon, Jimi Hendrix, Well, keep in mind that death tends to have an effect on one's career... Although Hendrix's estate hasn't done too badly... I think that there was still the prevailing idea at the turn of the decade that rock and roll was a young person's music, even disposable, and you weren't supposed to trust anyone over 30. Remember Jagger saying once that he didn't want to be singing "Satisfaction" when he was 40? I think I remember Allan mention in an interview once that he went solo at 30 because in part he didn't want to at 35? I mean, my son is 34 this year and I still think of him as a kid! And most of the acts you mention above were not "stadium" acts. In the UK, at least, they played the smaller gigs, the TV shows, and, from the sounds of Bobby's book, with the same crazy schedule as they did in the 60s. (In Canada that was the golden age of 50s rockers -- Fats Domino and Roy Orbison and Chubby Checker -- playing the bar circuit, even appearing in Thunder Bay, of all places, more than once. That must have almost killed them, considering it's a 9 hours drive from any other Canadian city!) That lifestyle wouldn't quite fit in with what most 30-something guys do or would want to do: settle down, raise kids, enjoy the fruits of their labours. How many could stand hanging out with their old mates 24-7 after so many years when they had a wife and family waiting at home? And, as we've seem, when they tried to balance the two, it could become complicated in terms of relationships, health issues, etc.
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Post by JamesT on Jun 29, 2020 15:45:59 GMT
One thing worth mentioning with The Tremeloes is that no less than three of their offspring went on to become successful pop stars during the '90s: Chip Hawkes' son Chesney, who topped the UK charts with 'The One and Only' and also had 5 other hits, and Brian Poole's daughters Karen and Shelly, who had 9 hits as 'Alisha's Attic', and have both gone on to become highly successful songwriters for other artists. How many other 60s acts can boast that?! I'm probably alone in this, but I loved 'The One and Only' and the film it was from, 'Buddy's Song' starring Chesney Hawkes, Roger Daltrey and Michael Elphick. OK, I'll get my coat...
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Post by sandy on Jun 29, 2020 16:18:00 GMT
One thing worth mentioning with The Tremeloes is that no less than three of their offspring went on to become successful pop stars during the '90s: Chip Hawkes' son Chesney, who topped the UK charts with 'The One and Only' and also had 5 other hits, and Brian Poole's daughters Karen and Shelly, who had 9 hits as 'Alisha's Attic', and have both gone on to become highly successful songwriters for other artists. How many other 60s acts can boast that?! I'm probably alone in this, but I loved 'The One and Only' and the film it was from, 'Buddy's Song' starring Chesney Hawkes, Roger oDaltrey and Michael Elphick. OK, I'll get my coat... 😉I like it too..... actually,a really ahead of it's time message too😉
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 16:48:51 GMT
Must confess I've never seen it! I do like Roger Daltrey as an actor though, particularly in 'McVicar' with Adam Faith.
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Post by johnt on Jun 29, 2020 21:40:01 GMT
One thing worth mentioning with The Tremeloes is that no less than three of their offspring went on to become successful pop stars during the '90s: Chip Hawkes' son Chesney, who topped the UK charts with 'The One and Only' and also had 5 other hits, and Brian Poole's daughters Karen and Shelly, who had 9 hits as 'Alisha's Attic', and have both gone on to become highly successful songwriters for other artists. How many other 60s acts can boast that?! Not forgetting that Alan Blakley had two talented daughters too. Claudie is a successful actress (like her mother Lin) and Kirsten was a singer in the band Little Spitfire. Don't think they made the big time though.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 9:19:14 GMT
Sadly the 'Sixties Gold' tour has been postponed by a year: Margate Winter Gardens and Sixties Gold regret to announce that the Friday 20 November 2020 gig in Margate has been postponed due to the continuing COVID-19 pandemic. However, we are pleased to announce that the gig will now take place on Saturday 9 October 2021 - All tickets remain valid and will automatically transfer to the new date.
Let's hope none of them retire (or worse) before then!
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Post by JamesT on Jul 10, 2020 12:18:35 GMT
Sadly the 'Sixties Gold' tour has been postponed by a year: Margate Winter Gardens and Sixties Gold regret to announce that the Friday 20 November 2020 gig in Margate has been postponed due to the continuing COVID-19 pandemic. However, we are pleased to announce that the gig will now take place on Saturday 9 October 2021 - All tickets remain valid and will automatically transfer to the new date.
Let's hope none of them retire (or worse) before then! Gerry's Pacemakers?! That's one way of doing it, I suppose! I know what you mean about retiring (or worse), Peter. There's a whole load of gigs I've had booked that have been postponed until the end of next year - I've already cancelled one as it wasn't one I was overly fussed with in light of so many others being rescheduled which may eventually clash. Such a pity for the likes of Allan Clarke who I feel may well have done a handful of live gigs this year which would have been landmark events - now there's so much uncertainty and I reckon there'll be no conventional live gigs before spring 2021.
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Post by sandy on Jul 10, 2020 13:32:43 GMT
Sadly the 'Sixties Gold' tour has been postponed by a year: Margate Winter Gardens and Sixties Gold regret to announce that the Friday 20 November 2020 gig in Margate has been postponed due to the continuing COVID-19 pandemic. However, we are pleased to announce that the gig will now take place on Saturday 9 October 2021 - All tickets remain valid and will automatically transfer to the new date.
Let's hope none of them retire (or worse) before then! Gerry's Pacemakers?! That's one way of doing it, I suppose! I know what you mean about retiring (or worse), Peter. There's a whole load of gigs I've had booked that have been postponed until the end of next year - I've already cancelled one as it wasn't one I was overly fussed with in light of so many others being rescheduled which may eventually clash. Such a pity for the likes of Allan Clarke who I feel may well have done a handful of live gigs this year which would have been landmark events - now there's so much uncertainty and I reckon there'll be no conventional live gigs before spring 2021. ..and meanwhile ,time marches on ,for them all....such a shame,as you say. Allan might have missed the boat with Graham, I suspect.
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Post by Mevrouw Bee on Jul 10, 2020 14:33:37 GMT
Gerry's Pacemakers?! That's one way of doing it, I suppose! I know what you mean about retiring (or worse), Peter. There's a whole load of gigs I've had booked that have been postponed until the end of next year - I've already cancelled one as it wasn't one I was overly fussed with in light of so many others being rescheduled which may eventually clash. Such a pity for the likes of Allan Clarke who I feel may well have done a handful of live gigs this year which would have been landmark events - now there's so much uncertainty and I reckon there'll be no conventional live gigs before spring 2021. ..and meanwhile ,time marches on ,for them all....such a shame,as you say. Allan might have missed the boat with Graham, I suspect. Bite your tongue woman. Ricky & Dane will return! At least on vinyl! *stamps little foot*
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Post by sandy on Jul 10, 2020 15:06:21 GMT
..and meanwhile ,time marches on ,for them all....such a shame,as you say. Allan might have missed the boat with Graham, I suspect. Bite your tongue woman. Ricky & Dane will return! At least on vinyl! *stamps little foot* 😂😅😂🤞I do hope so 🤞🤞🤞and 🤞
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Post by baz on Jul 10, 2020 15:44:44 GMT
Gerry's Pacemakers?! That's one way of doing it, I suppose! I did read on Gerry's website they are officially endorsed by him which is more than can be said of some other acts! I doubt very much Michelle Gilliam - the sole surviving member of the Mamas and The Papas - gave any endorsement to the UK version of the band on this bill!
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