trask
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Post by trask on May 9, 2023 11:57:27 GMT
I think it's important to take some of the lesser bonus tracks in with the context that many of them weren't actually released at the time. If you were a Hollies fan in 1964, here's what you'd have got up to mid-1964 when sessions for the follow up album would start... In my experience, there are too many examples of an artist's superior tracks being left in the can, while lesser stuff was released. The Byrds' first four albums are one example. The Kinks also had many great unreleased tracks during the classic run from Face to Face through Arthur. So that is my rationale for including previous unreleased tracks here. Of the stray Hollies tracks I included in this most recent grouping, I don't think that "Poison Ivy" or "Zip a Dee Doo Dah" are particularly better or worse than anything on the first album. As for "I Understand," I can see why that was rejected. I am posting the stray tracks separately from the contemporaneous albums, if for no other reason than that it will be easier for me to absorb everything that way. |
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trask
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Post by trask on May 9, 2023 12:05:33 GMT
Personally, it's not one of my favourite Hollies eras. I think their sound here is very "thin" overall. Although Bobby and Eric work really well together on drums and bass respectively to fill out the sound, when Tony stops playing rhythm guitar and goes into a solo, the sound noticeably drops off. I'm glad that from around 1965 onwards, Graham was at least audibly strumming his acoustic guitar in the studio on most tracks, as it goes a long way to beef up their sound. Yes, this was my main issue with the production on the early recordings. when the guitar takes a solo, there is a gaping hole beneath. It's hard to believe that no one spoke up and suggested bringing up the rhythm guitar during the guitar solos, but at the time, this was just disposable pop music for teenagers. No one had any idea that we would be talking about this stuff 60 years later. |
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Post by cameron on May 9, 2023 14:35:50 GMT
In my experience, there are too many examples of an artist's superior tracks being left in the can, while lesser stuff was released. The Byrds' first four albums are one example. The Kinks also had many great unreleased tracks during the classic run from Face to Face through Arthur. So that is my rationale for including previous unreleased tracks here. Of the stray Hollies tracks I included in this most recent grouping, I don't think that "Poison Ivy" or "Zip a Dee Doo Dah" are particularly better or worse than anything on the first album. As for "I Understand," I can see why that was rejected. I am posting the stray tracks separately from the contemporaneous albums, if for no other reason than that it will be easier for me to absorb everything that way. Oh absolutely, I agree with everything you're saying here. I was just wanting to point out, in case you weren't aware, that some of these tracks that rub shoulders together on 'Clarke Hicks & Nash Years' were released decades after they were recorded, so they should probably be treated as "stray tracks", as they were never intended for the listening public at the time. The Kinks probably had more great stuff in the vaults than anyone else, certainly by 1968/9, even though much of it did creep out in America in a small way at the time, they weren't up for general worldwide consumption until the CD reissues in the early 2000s. There's a whole album's worth of outtakes from the 'Village Green Preservation Society' era, which cohesively stands up on its own as an album. I vividly recall buying the 3-CD 'Village Green' boxset from Sanctuary Records in 2004 and it was just a delight to discover such hidden gems like 'Lavender Hill', 'Rosemary Rose' and 'Creeping Jean'. The Hollies too had so much in the vaults that languished there for decades, and apparently we've only heard a small fraction of what's there. It's usually a case of if it's still on a multi-track tape, the Hollies won't pay for the studio time to mix it. There's very few examples of them doing this in the last 60 years. The official sessionography is allegedly inaccurate and lacking in detail, a recent trawl through the vaults by Ron Furmanek turned up recordings that are unlisted on the sessionography and also forgotten by/unknown to the Hollies themselves! So we await further news there... For historical context, some Hollies canned release highlights include: Man With No Expression (Horses Through A Rainstorm) - recorded in 1968, released in 1993 Tomorrow When It Comes - recorded in 1968, released in 1988 Tip of the Iceberg - recorded in 1973, released in 1997 Schoolgirl - recorded in 1967, released/finished off in 1997 A Taste of Honey - recorded in 1968, released in 2003 Yes I Will (alternative version) - recorded in 1964, released by mistake in stereo only in 1968 Carrie - recorded in 1983, released in 1988 If It Wasn't For The Reason That I Love You - recorded in 1972, released in 1988 In many ways, the Hollies also had an album's worth of outtakes in 1968 for the cancelled final album with Graham Nash. Lots of those now popular songs like 'Open Up Your Eyes' and 'Like Every Time Before' were hard to find for years after, rarely, if ever, turning up on compilations. 'Clarke Hicks & Nash Years' in 2011 was the first proper gathering of all the Hollies' Graham Nash era stuff, even turning up rare stereo mixes and the previously unreleased Lewisham Odeon concert recording from 1968. |
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Post by sandy on May 9, 2023 18:25:50 GMT
Personally, it's not one of my favourite Hollies eras. I think their sound here is very "thin" overall. Although Bobby and Eric work really well together on drums and bass respectively to fill out the sound, when Tony stops playing rhythm guitar and goes into a solo, the sound noticeably drops off. I'm glad that from around 1965 onwards, Graham was at least audibly strumming his acoustic guitar in the studio on most tracks, as it goes a long way to beef up their sound. Yes, this was my main issue with the production on the early recordings. when the guitar takes a solo, there is a gaping hole beneath. It's hard to believe that no one spoke up and suggested bringing up the rhythm guitar during the guitar solos, but at the time, this was just disposable pop music for teenagers. No one had any idea that we would be talking about this stuff 60 years later. And they were listening to it on tiny portable record players, not hifi😉 |
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trask
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Post by trask on May 9, 2023 18:42:07 GMT
Yes, this was my main issue with the production on the early recordings. when the guitar takes a solo, there is a gaping hole beneath. It's hard to believe that no one spoke up and suggested bringing up the rhythm guitar during the guitar solos, but at the time, this was just disposable pop music for teenagers. No one had any idea that we would be talking about this stuff 60 years later. And they were listening to it on tiny portable record players, not hifi😉 Yes, which would only have emphasized the tinny production on the early tracks. |
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Post by gee on May 9, 2023 21:50:34 GMT
Re 'When I'm Not There'
- the untitled track recorded on 3 July 1963 with Don Rathbone on drums (of identical running time) appears to be the original 'B' side included on the Parlophone 'white label' demo disc which dates from 1963 c/w 'Searchin' which also featured Don on drums as Bobby was yet to replace him and Don's final Hollies recording session appears to be on 25 July 1963 - when the released single version of 'Searchin' was recorded featuring Tommy Sanderson on piano
the fact that Susan Sanderson's name (presumably she was a relative of Tommy ?) is written in pen on the earlier 1963 version of 'When I'm Not There' is probably as she was given a free complimentary demo copy of the assumed forthcoming single release prior to the decision being made to replace 'When I'm Not There' (1963 version) with 'Whole World Over' - just a guess there but I think it might be the case
Bobby Elliott then joined in time to promote the recently released single 'Searchin' and it would appear his first recording session with the group produced 'Stay'- the sudden 'powering up' of their drumming sound really standing out (however they still used an earlier recording 'Nows The Time' featuring Don on drums as the UK single 'B' side) - plus cut a couple of differing versions of 'Poison Ivy' on 11 October 1963
- the longer 'Poison Ivy', (which was take 9 I believe), with extra guitar solo but a rare Eric Haydock bass error version was released in Australia on 'The Hollies' album (AXIS 6361)
- I did ask Tim Chacksfield about that longer version of 'Poison Ivy' when the demo discs for 'The Clarke, Hicks, Nash Years' CD set were sent for a listen but Tim said no way would The Hollies Limited agree to a version with an error being included - the overseas release must have slipped through originally...
A second 'Bobby Elliott' 1964 version of Tony's 'When I'm Not There' was recorded on 2 March 1964 along with 'What Kind of Love' for inclusion on 'The Hollies' EP (Parlophone GEP 8909)
so two versions of Tony's early song 'When I'm Not There' must exist - the earlier 1963 rejected 'B' side version with Don, and the later EP track 1964 version cut with Bobby.
re the very hard stereo with: 'vocals on one stereo channel plus the occasional lone instrument / other instruments on the other stereo channel'
- I think it was a quick cheap mix probably done by EMI staff engineers to save time and studio costs rather than down to laziness - Hollies especially but also some Beatles, Fourmost, Swinging Blue Jeans, Gerry & The Pacemakers and Cliff Richard / Shadows stereo tracks feature this very hard stereo separation as did also Simon Dupree & The Big Sound LP in 1967
Apparently the stereo version of 'Stay With The Hollies' sold very poorly in the UK while the mono version chiefly powered the album up to no.2 position (their very highest non compilation album UK chart position) hence the following two studio albums were in mono only initially, and as has been stated 'Would You Believe ?' was only in mono at first in 1966 - and those plus 'Evolution' all had the very hard stereo separation mix.
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trask
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Post by trask on May 9, 2023 23:33:29 GMT
...note they have full names credits over 1963 to 1964 when they unwisely became 'Ransford' later in 1964 by the time of 'We're Through' / 'Come On Back' single (which made no.7 in the UK singles chart) and their second album 'In The Hollies Style' (which made no.8 in the NME Albums chart if mysteriously not figuring at all in the LP chart the BBC used...) Although Ron Richards linear note on the UK sleeve of the second album made it clear they were 'Ransford' this pen name made many simply assume The Hollies were not 'proper' songwriters up to mid 1966 and probably damaged their standing compared to other top groups of that era in the view of many people...even The Everly Brothers 1966 LP 'Two Yanks in England' and The Searchers 1967 cover of 'Have You Ever Loved Somebody' carried the 'Ransford' name as songwriter... What was the advantage of the pseudonyms? Considering that the Fabs were raising expectations for groups to write their own material, the pseudonyms seem counter-intuitive. |
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Post by baz on May 10, 2023 1:06:20 GMT
What was the advantage of the pseudonyms? Considering that the Fabs were raising expectations for groups to write their own material, the pseudonyms seem counter-intuitive. The story supposedly goes they were told that they wouldn't be able to fit all their names on the label hence coming up with the pseudonym. That's the "official" version told by band members but I find it absurdly hard to believe. They would have had to be very stupid and naive to seriously believe that when you consider right from the first single, they knew writing their own B sides was just as lucrative as A sides and ensured they did those so if they were smart enough to know and understand that, then submitting to the "all the names won't fit" doesn't make any logical sense. What made it even more stupid is that the identity of "L Ransford" was hardly any secret so can't be put down to a possible lack of confidence in their own writing. Sure, The Hollies may have been a bit young and green and made some mistakes in the early days but this particular story has never washed with me. |
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Post by gee on May 10, 2023 21:41:49 GMT
There could be an undisclosed 'business reason' for the pen name possibly
The Shadows wrote 'FBI' under the pen name of 'Peter Gormley' who was their manager then and 'Gonzales' which was also put under a pen name on their original debut album release tho' other originals such as 'Nivram' were credited to them - it's possible a royalties return angle re percentages or on the number of self credited songs etc might have applied at the time
Even where credited things were not always a clear as they appeared - we know that despite 'Lennon-McCartney' either alone or together penning Beatles songs figures such as Dick James got a percentage via the dreadful Northern songs deal ...sometimes putting a song under a pen name was done in order to get around business deals - such a deal ensured that Norman Petty got his name on Buddy Holly's songs he never contributed to at all !
The Rolling Stones briefly also put their early composing efforts under the 'Nanker-Phelge' tag before wisely dropping the pen name
so while initially the composing Hollies took proper named credits for their 1963-earlier 1964 songs possibly 'L. Ransford' thereafter applying from their first single A side; 'We're Through' and 'Come On Back' had a business angle not disclosed (?) and is it just nothing more than a mere co-incidence that after Eric Haydock was fired and Bernie Calvert recruited in 1966 following a group reorganisation they had the confidence to opt for issuing all original material only and then put everything under the full team banner of 'Clarke-Hicks-Nash' regardless of who actually wrote what (another business tag at the time up to 1968) - that idea began to frustrate Graham Nash as time went on certainly re the era of 'Butterfly'
I'm not saying Eric was the reason, tho' we have learned Eric DID want to contribute to the songwriting but was effectively 'frozen out' (one of the reasons for his growing dissatisfaction over 1965-66) while years later Terry Sylvester would find his solo contributions being phased out and nothing of his used after 1974 or his team contributions after 1978
so there obviously were 'factors' in what material they used, and the (in retrospect unwise) 'Ransford' tag may well have had a business angle to it during the 1964-early 1966 period that has never been disclosed...(??)
The idea they fell for the line their three names were too long to fit on a record label is quite absurd
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Post by dirtyfaz on May 11, 2023 2:38:07 GMT
A good story about 3 names being too long but as Gee and other say "quite Absurd". 15 letters and a few for a comma & space. The business idea makes sense. An interesting story would be to look at who did what in the writing and also how much. It would be interesting if it actually was a 3 way even split. A lot has come out about Lennon & McCartney and what they actually did. This is all stuff about the Hollies we will never actually know the truth.
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Post by cameron on May 19, 2023 11:17:50 GMT
I think the story of 'L Ransford' is nothing more than the Hollies being insecure about their songwriting talents, which they dressed up to the press as a management decision. I think this is the real reason why any artist who used a pseudonym early on did so. The Hollies didn't get the same encouragement or involvement from Ron Richards as the Beatles got from George Martin. When you hear how George Martin shaped 'Please Please Me' into a hard-hitting pop record from a rather dreary demo, you begin to understand the importance of a producer. Even making the Beatles re-record 'Love Me Do' to improve the arrangement further, it goes to show that even if you've got the raw talent, it needs refining and shaping.
Whenever they've spoken about 'We're Through' being their first self-composed A-side, it seems that Ron Richards "let them have it", as opposed to actively encouraging them. From bits of press at the time, the Hollies seemed disappointed that it didn't beat the success of 'Here I Go Again', and Ron got them to do 'Yes I Will' after, which again, doesn't give them the confidence boost that they needed. Allan did an interview back in 1964 that admitted that they needed more time to hone their songwriting skills. I mean, come on, it made No.7 in the British charts, hardly a poor showing for the group's first self-composed single!
The Hollies have never been massively confident with their songwriting: I believe their flurry of activity around 1966-68 was mostly off the back of their heroes the Everly Brothers asking for so many of their songs for the 'Two Yanks In England' album. Even then, these were all credited to 'L. Ransford'! A Hollies original rarely got covered by chart-topping artists - I think the Searchers covering 'Have You Ever Loved Somebody' in 1966 was probably the most popular act to cover a Hollies original after the Everly Brothers. Both artists were arguably on the wane in terms of popularity when they recorded Hollies songs. I think relenting to use 'Clarke-Hicks-Nash' in 1966 WAS linked to their new business deal with EMI, in the respect that probably Graham argued that they were successful enough now to own up to their own songwriting.
Tony Hicks, especially, has been extremely disparaging of some of their self-composed material early on, describing 'I Understand' as "an embarrassment" and later, some of their more psychedelic offerings on 'Butterfly' as "Lightweight". I believe that Tony was actually probably the main driving force in the songwriting trio. It certainly seems that more often than not, it's him that had the bare bones of a song first, but very much needed Allan and Graham to finish it off. Apparently Graham was the one who would come up with the catchy hook for the chorus, Tony would handle the verses and Allan usually provided a contrasting middle-eight section. Later on, Allan would write with Terry first, and Tony would write both on his own and with Kenny Lynch, either way, usually providing the lion's share of original material for their 1969-1974 era albums. Allan too would work with Roger Cook more than he would with Tony at this point too. Getting them to work as a trio seemed to take a while to produce any results; 'Please Sign Your Letters' and 'Do You Believe In Love' were the first two efforts from Clarke-Hicks-Sylvester, which are arguably the poorest songs on the 'Hollies Sing Hollies' album. The three didn't write together again until way later in 1974 for the majority of the 'Another Night' LP!
For all of Graham's "I had a clean break from the Hollies in 1968" talk, he instigated breaking up the Clarke/Hicks/Nash writing credits for the 'Butterfly' album around 1972/3. Why this was important to him at this point, I don't know. 'Butterfly' had been completely forgotten about by the record buying public by then! There's photos of Tony's legal agreement kicking around somewhere regarding this. When 'Butterfly' was reissued by EMI in 1978, each song was credited to the appropriate composer.
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Post by gee on May 19, 2023 21:41:14 GMT
If that was the case re lack of self belief in their composing skills then how come early 1963-64 songs such as: 'Whole World Over', 'Little Lover', 'Hey Whats Wrong With Me', 'Nows The Time','When I'm Not There', 'What Kind of Love' and 'Keep Off That Friend of Mine' were all duly credited to themselves as composers be it put under Nash-Clarke, Hicks, or Hicks-Elliott plus Nash-Clarke-Hicks with the pen name idea only then coming later after Bobby was installed and their position as a top UK chart group established with two big UK hits 'Stay' and 'Just One Look' under their belts (this could be significant)
bear in mind that two self composed songs they cut at their initial recording session were used along with '(Ain't That) Just Like Me' as 'B' sides on their first two singles in 1963
Re the pen name first up they use 'Chester-Mann' on 'Baby That's All' with 'L. Ransford' only being adopted later in 1964 for 'We're Through' / 'Come On Back' and their original songs on the second album...while maybe there was a song publishing angle here (?) or maybe their 'management' came up with the pen name idea for some reason (??)
if they were lacking confidence in their songwriting then why did they not adopt the 'Chester-Mann' / 'Ransford' pen names idea right from the beginning on the more basic earlier numbers in 1963-64...?
the fact that for some reason The Shadows still put a few original numbers under a pen name alongside tracks credited to themselves when they had already written UK chart topping singles for Cliff Richard such as: 'Please Don't Tease', 'I Love You', and other chart hits such as 'Gee Whizz It's You' etc which went under their own names might indicate such moves possibly had a reason not disclosed that was nothing to do with any lack of self confidence
The Rolling Stones likewise using 'Nanker-Phelge' on a few (but not all) original compositions early on is equally fascinating
songwriter John Worsley wrote UK chart topping hits for Adam Faith such as: 'What Do You Want', 'Poor Me', plus hits such as: 'Well I Ask You' for Eden Kane and 'Ain't That Funny' for Jimmy Justice under the pen names 'Les Vandyke' and later 'John Worth' and he hardly was lacking in self confidence was he ? - however he DID have a business reason concerning being signed to Oriole records and he wished his songwriting to remain clear of any ideas they might have had on his works
The Hollies clearly were only signed to EMI /Parlophone in 1963 however their management situation was a bit vague it seems with a few characters claiming to have some vested interest in them on the management side it appears - Cohen and Sanderson seemed to have differing ideas of who were the manager ! - not saying that was the reason they suddenly changed to using the pen names in 1964 but no one believes the 'public line' about three names not fitting on a record label and given how ultra keen they always were to keep their group business matters VERY private and only giving the public the line they wanted to (such as saying Eric left as he'd just got married and wanted more time at home etc) there could possibly be a undisclosed reason they chose to adopt the pen name even if Ron Richard's linear notes on 'In The Hollies Style' openly disclosed just who 'Ransford' really was...
that said many people up to later 1966 DID assume The Hollies were not capable of writing their own material...and sadly producer Ron Richards appeared to at least partially share that opinion !
re the songwriting Nash-Clarke were apparently composing in 1961 so Allan Clarke once said onstage in the eighties (when he said that Graham and himself wrote 'Running Through The Night' the song later used in 1966 as a 'B' side credited by then to 'Ransford' tho' clearly only Nash-Clarke had actually written it as Tony was yet to join them) and certainly their earliest four original released efforts were only written and sung by them as a duo
'When I'm Not There' tells us that Tony began songwriting alone to start with, while I have read that Graham Nash was normally the verse writer in chief, and Tony had a flair for a good chorus line ('Carrie Anne' was such a noted case)
Tony said his unreleased song 'You Were A Pretty Little Girl' was 'not much more than a chorus'
while I think Malc spoke of Allan Clarke largely having composed 'Dear Eloise' before the others then added additional input
Allan actually was writing more than many believed - 'Lullaby To Tim' was his, probably 'Water On The Brain' too and we know AC was responsible for 'Would You Believe' and the instigator of both 'Charlie And Fred' and 'Try it'
- those (including a far too modest Allan !) who claim 'Butterfly' was 'Nash's album' are really somewhat over balancing the set too much in Graham's favor for Allan was alot more involved creatively while Tony contributed on a few team composed songs plus provided and alone sang his own 'Pegasus'
Allan wrote most of 'Wings' too which I have seen Nash get all the credit for in some music writers opinions !
Tony said 'Allan played the guitar on 'Crusader' which surprised me so maybe that song was Allan's initial idea ??
in an interview Graham said: 'I Wrote a song about death and over population in the sixties' - which implies that 'Too Many People' was Nash's idea....
Allan has also said how they would quickly reel off the single 'A' side - 'Bus Stop' nailed in about 45 minutes I think they said - so then they could put more studio time and creativity into their OWN song on the 'B' side which suggests they had belief in their own abilities, while in 1965 Ron Richards getting them to do a reluctant cover of the old Frankie Laine hit 'That's My Desire' (a song written way back in 1932) really rankled with them, they even vetoed it's inclusion on 'Hollies Greatest Hits' 2CD set decades later !
we have scant details of who exactly wrote what in those sixties days before 'Butterfly' but I would think the main trio had the ideas that were brought together with probably Tony and Bobby then the main musician group figures in the studio re putting the ideas into actual music arrangements
They certainly had plenty of self confidence in forming GRALTO Music Ltd...then obtaining the very lucrative 'Leasing back' deal with EMI in 1966 that The Beatles must at that time have really envied - while The Shadows later left EMI in 1980 when unable to secure a similar agreement on the back of a UK chart topping album 'String of Hits'
Nash in the early seventies seemed almost upset he was seen by some as a 'lightweight pop star' who was only a trio team co-songwriter in The Hollies unlike Crosby, Stills or Young in The Byrds and Springfield who were credited alone for their earlier songs so I suspect he was keen to reclaim songs he alone had composed but were put under the full team banner in the 1966-68 period so that to fans of CSNY he would be seen as a more credible songwriter figure who had been writing solo before leaving The Hollies - he also stated songs such as 'Marrakesh Express', 'Right Between The Eyes' and 'Sleep Song' were written before he left The Hollies - this probably explains why he wanted the credits on 'Butterfly' later revised to who penned what songs
I do not consider the two Clarke-Hicks-Sylvester songs on 'Hollies Sing Hollies' to be the poorest tracks
- for me 'You Love Cos You Like it' is the weakest very 'poppy' track with a far too 'twee' orchestral accompaniment arrangement more suited to groups like Middle of The Road etc
'you love cos you like it, you like it because you're lovin' me...'
- hardly their strongest lyrics and really a quick re-hash of Tony's song title; 'Cos You Like To Love Me' for me only the lead vocal and trademark tight vocal harmonies save a frankly rather 'routine' forgettable lighter pop item by Hollies standards
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