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Post by anthony on Nov 23, 2019 4:48:11 GMT
Hi all, when did the Hollies officially start as a group, I know the story goes they were about to step on stage and were asked their name, it was around Christmas time etc.... I know we have a member or two here that go way back to the very early days, would love to hear what they were like back then.,
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Post by gee on Nov 24, 2019 19:01:01 GMT
The 'accepted' origin....
The band sort of 'evolved' - Graham and Allan were together from schooldays, then briefly apart when Allan sang in a local skiffle group in late 1957, then they were back together as the Everlys and Rock and Roll, even country music influenced 'The Two Teens' in Spring 1958 later as 'Ricky and Dane Young' by November 1958 who with guitarist Pete Bocking, bass player John Mepham, and drummer Joe Abrahams became Ricky and Dane with The Fourtones - Derek Quinn later of Freddie and The Dreamers came into the band and later departed by 1961
The Fourtones line up folded on 28 July 1962
Eric Haydock of The Deltas came across Clarke and Nash singing in a club called La Ronda - Eric persuaded the duo to join forces with him in a new band who at first were The Deltas but really had no fixed name and their title changed regularly...they were even called 'The Flintstones' and went onstage wearing loin cloths !
Guitarist Vic Farrell aka 'Vic Steele' and drummer Don Rathbone completed the line up - both formerly of The Dominators of Rhythm and The Electrons ...band names they still used at times
Until in December 1962 Allan Clarke, Graham Nash, Eric Haydock, Vic 'Steele' and Don Rathbone were billed at the 2Js club...when asked their collective name Don Rathbone suggested The Deadbeats - quickly dismissed Eric Haydock remembered it was Allan Clarke who suggested 'The Hollies' probably inspired by the Christmas decorations up at the club decked with holly...plus Clarke and Nash were big fans of Buddy Holly which clinched it - per Nash later
they therefore took the name 'The Hollies' in December 1962 assuming they would soon find a better 'proper' group name....
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Post by anthony on Nov 24, 2019 23:37:37 GMT
Thank you Gee, Its interesting to wonder when a group becomes a group, To me its December 62 when Allan thought of Hollies. It wasn't all that long after that moment that we had a few line up changes, Tony then Bobby coming into the band. they are still in The Hollies who have been going 57 years, that's amazing to think about it. Its great to think that all these years later they can still put on a great show and attract large audiences, I know other groups from that era do the local RSL clubs mainly, only group I can think of from the early60's is the stones that can pull a big crowd. Looking forward to Bobs book next year. I have often thought of having a topic for some members, When did the Hollies stop being the Hollies for them.
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Post by gee on Nov 25, 2019 11:48:12 GMT
One of the group names they also used was The Guyatones when they were using various names - it's probably true to say it was that December 1962 show where they first went out as 'The Hollies' that the band's own story began
re original members I would always consider Tony Hicks an 'original' member as he was in the band and played on their first EMI recording session early in 1963 of which three tracks were officially released
Tony was a 'Hollie' in their recording story even earlier than say Ringo was a 'Beatle' as Pete Best played on both Decca and EMI test recordings tho' of course Ringo played on the first single version of 'Love Me Do' that made no.17 in 1962 so I would always see Ringo as an original 'Beatle'
It is arguable of course but I think the released recording debuts of bands mark their true beginnings re 'original' members status for me
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2019 12:30:48 GMT
The 'accepted' origin.... ...later as 'Ricky and Dane Young' by November 1958 who with guitarist Pete Bocking, bass player John Mepham, and drummer Joe Abrahams became Ricky and Dane with The Fourtones - Derek Quinn later of Freddie and The Dreamers came into the band and later departed by 1961 I'm assuming they weren't called The Fourtones until Derek Quinn (or a different, unnamed, 4th member) joined? Calling a 3-piece band 'The Fourtones' just doesn't make sense.
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Post by anthony on Nov 25, 2019 22:48:56 GMT
One of the group names they also used was The Guyatones when they were using various names - it's probably true to say it was that December 1962 show where they first went out as 'The Hollies' that the band's own story began re original members I would always consider Tony Hicks an 'original' member as he was in the band and played on their first EMI recording session early in 1963 of which three tracks were officially released Tony was a 'Hollie' in their recording story even earlier than say Ringo was a 'Beatle' as Pete Best played on both Decca and EMI test recordings tho' of course Ringo played on the first single version of 'Love Me Do' that made no.17 in 1962 so I would always see Ringo as an original 'Beatle' It is arguable of course but I think the released recording debuts of bands mark their true beginnings re 'original' members status for me Agree, in my opinion Tony is an original, as you say played on every record, I look at Bobby being the Ringo Star, missed the start but joined not long after, I have heard people say that this current line up has no originals, think its more they are just anti the Hollies now. funny to think that technically the Rickfors line up, had no originals members and that was back in the early 70's. . To me the Hollies stared with the era that recorded Stay. Amazing how many line up changes they had from their first recording to the end of the 60's.
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Post by anthony on Nov 25, 2019 22:50:05 GMT
The 'accepted' origin.... ...later as 'Ricky and Dane Young' by November 1958 who with guitarist Pete Bocking, bass player John Mepham, and drummer Joe Abrahams became Ricky and Dane with The Fourtones - Derek Quinn later of Freddie and The Dreamers came into the band and later departed by 1961 I'm assuming they weren't called The Fourtones until Derek Quinn (or a different, unnamed, 4th member) joined? Calling a 3-piece band 'The Fourtones' just doesn't make sense. was Derek in Freddie and the Dreamers?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2019 22:55:32 GMT
Yes, Derek was the fair-haired one who always wore sunglasses.
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Post by anthony on Nov 26, 2019 1:02:15 GMT
Yes, Derek was the fair-haired one who always wore sunglasses.
Thanks Peter. Also you did well to be able to past a photo on this site,
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Post by eric on Nov 26, 2019 4:21:22 GMT
re original members I would always consider Tony Hicks an 'original' member as he was in the band and played on their first EMI recording session early in 1963 of which three tracks were officially released I agree with Gee's opinion. In my view, it is pointless, and an insult, to question whether Tony and Bobby are original members of The Hollies. They feature on all of the band's most successful singles and the first album to boot. Enough said.
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Post by cameron on Nov 27, 2019 0:24:22 GMT
I think the Hollies start the moment that Bobby Elliott picked up his sticks at the back of their stage for the first time. He's the missing piece of the puzzle that's integral to the Hollies' sound. Those first studio cuts with Don Rathbone were never going to launch the group to superstardom. Bobby's animated drumming gave their (let's be honest, fairly sparse) instrumental backing some flair and excitement. It was that magical combination of those five particular guys that would open the doors to the top of the charts.
I think of all the members to come and go over the years, and absolutely no discredit whatsoever to them, the four unique sounds to the Hollies were Allan Clarke's voice, Tony Hicks' virtuosic guitar work, Bobby Elliott's fast and furious drumming and that three way vocal blend lead by Allan's strong voice, supported by Tony's firm lower harmony and neatly finished off with a very confident soaring harmony singer, be it Graham Nash, Terry Sylvester or Alan Coates. I think so long as those four elements were in place, you have THE Hollies and their infamous sound. As great as the Rickfors era was, it could have been a totally different band due to the change in style. I don't hear a Rickfors fronted record and think "that's a great summary of the Hollies' work" because he's just not Allan Clarke, therefore not typical of their music in their heyday.
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Post by gee on Nov 27, 2019 10:42:58 GMT
Re Peter's point about The Fourtones - one name Clarke and Nash used was 'The Two Teens' which seems to have evolved into 'The Two Tones' - when John Mepham, Pete Bocking and Joe Abrahams formed a band around them they initially appear to have gone out as 'Ricky Young and The FOURtones - that is Clarke and a fourpiece backing band which then became 'Ricky and Dane with The Fourtones as Nash got a featured credit despite them actually being a FIVE piece group !
Then future Dreamer Derek Quinn came in as lead guitarist and the name became; 'Ricky and Dane with The 'Fabulous' Fourtones - for about six weeks Derek Quinn recalled
Quinn also recalls Clarke and Nash wrote a song for The Fourtones called; 'Learn How To Twist' ! - however Nash has since stated that 'Whole World Over' was the first song they wrote together - possibly if Derek is right the Twist song Nash might rather forget !
I would agree with Cameron that THE Hollies clearly do begin with Bobby Elliott's debut and 'Stay' - however Don Rathbone was on 13 studio recordings - a few released - including two UK chart singles with the second 'Searchin' a decent sized hit for the group reaching no.12 which was pretty impressive and it was in the UK chart for 14 weeks in total so unlike say Pete Best Don could claim to be their original recording band drummer featuring on chart hit singles
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2019 11:34:52 GMT
Gee, thanks for the explanation! Very informative.
In response to Cameron's post, I largely agree, but let's not under-estimate Eric Haydock: perhaps because The Hollies were (basically) a one guitar band, he played with a power and speed close to The Who's John Entwistle and Cream's Jack Bruce (both one guitar bands) rather than to the usual "beat group" bassists. Compare the early recordings of The Hollies to The Searchers! It's the bass that stands out just as much as anything else.
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Post by stuball on Nov 27, 2019 14:29:47 GMT
I think the Hollies start the moment that Bobby Elliott picked up his sticks at the back of their stage for the first time. He's the missing piece of the puzzle that's integral to the Hollies' sound. Those first studio cuts with Don Rathbone were never going to launch the group to superstardom. Bobby's animated drumming gave their (let's be honest, fairly sparse) instrumental backing some flair and excitement. It was that magical combination of those five particular guys that would open the doors to the top of the charts. I think of all the members to come and go over the years, and absolutely no discredit whatsoever to them, the four unique sounds to the Hollies were Allan Clarke's voice, Tony Hicks' virtuosic guitar work, Bobby Elliott's fast and furious drumming and that three way vocal blend lead by Allan's strong voice, supported by Tony's firm lower harmony and neatly finished off with a very confident soaring harmony singer, be it Graham Nash, Terry Sylvester or Alan Coates. I think so long as those four elements were in place, you have THE Hollies and their infamous sound. As great as the Rickfors era was, it could have been a totally different band due to the change in style. I don't hear a Rickfors fronted record and think "that's a great summary of the Hollies' work" because he's just not Allan Clarke, therefore not typical of their music in their heyday. I think you've hit the nail on the head there, Cameron. Very perceptive! I would only add that The Hollies 'sound' in '63-64 often suffered from a noticeable lack of a second guitar, especially during Hick's lead breaks. To my ear, despite Haydock's furiously fast playing, it sounds noticeably hollow and naked. By '65 however, they were filling out their instrumental sound with that second guitar, and 'The Hollies Sound' really jelled. One other thought: I've always thought their first LP suffered from a weak 'rhythm section'. Not that Haydock and Elliott weren't fine players individually, but that they were new to each other and hadn't had time to fully jell. They're both playing at manic speed, but they don't sound tight. Once they got a feel for each other, they were unbeatable as a rhythm section.
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Post by dirtyfaz on Nov 27, 2019 21:23:33 GMT
Great to have all the information both pre and post the Hollies commencing. Lots of different thoughts here by the group.
So the reality here is that the Hollies actually begun in December 1962. The 5 guys in the band on that day can only be the original Hollies. Think what original actually means.
Every other version of the Hollies are the Hollies but original is original. Bobby didn't actually join until the middle of 1963 so there is absolutely no way he can be considered an original original although he almost was. Rathbone was recording, performing live, appearing on TV and in photo shoots as a Hollies.
Now this topic is actually titled "the beginnings of the Hollies" so all the discussion about the very, very early days fits that nicely with the topic. All the rest is just filler.
Interesting in this topic that Rickfors name came up. He wasn't even close to be at the beginnings of the Hollies in fact is was about 10 years after there formation.
Cam stated "As great as the Rickfors era was, it could have been a totally different band due to the change in style" and in my world using words like 'it could' 'if' 'maybe' and the like actually means it didn't occur but I guess it is good to make an assumption of what may have been. I've been guilty of that myself.
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Post by anthony on Nov 27, 2019 22:35:17 GMT
Great to have all the information both pre and post the Hollies commencing. Lots of different thoughts here by the group. So the reality here is that the Hollies actually begun in December 1962. The 5 guys in the band on that day can only be the original Hollies. Think what original actually means. Every other version of the Hollies are the Hollies but original is original. Bobby didn't actually join until the middle of 1963 so there is absolutely no way he can be considered an original original although he almost was. Rathbone was recording, performing live, appearing on TV and in photo shoots as a Hollies. Now this topic is actually titled "the beginnings of the Hollies" so all the discussion about the very, very early days fits that nicely with the topic. All the rest is just filler. Interesting in this topic that Rickfors name came up. He wasn't even close to be at the beginnings of the Hollies in fact is was about 10 years after there formation. Cam stated "As great as the Rickfors era was, it could have been a totally different band due to the change in style" and in my world using words like 'it could' 'if' 'maybe' and the like actually means it didn't occur but I guess it is good to make an assumption of what may have been. I've been guilty of that myself. Think that December 62 sounds about the best starting point, agree with Don, he has to be the original, the same as poor old Pete Best. One thing that is amazing is how they have had different line up changes and don't really miss a beat. Been really enjoying all the comments and views.
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Post by gee on Nov 29, 2019 14:19:52 GMT
Strictly speaking IF we take that first line up who went out as 'The Hollies' back in December 1962 - then it means that Tony Hicks would NOT be an 'original' band member either !
Allan Clarke, Graham Nash, Eric Haydock, Don Rathbone and Vic Steele FIRST went out as 'The Hollies' - tho' it might have equally if influenced by the Christmas decorations have been as 'The Hollys' !
the name then was NOT the 'official' group name just another temporary tag likely a festive themed one...UNTIL a better band name was thought of...
also Tony Hicks WAS present and a full time (highest) paid professional band member of 'The Hollies' as the band was then permanently named for the first EMI Test recording
so it's something of a 'chicken and the egg' situation as Vic Steele appears to have never recorded with the professional band or even turned pro - indeed he opted out because he never wanted to do that...
do you regard Tony Hicks as an 'original' Hollies band member ?
while at the other end of the timespan I know guys who DON'T regard Peter Howarth as being a member of The Hollies even now....
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Post by baz on Nov 29, 2019 16:12:37 GMT
so it's something of a 'chicken and the egg' situation as Vic Steele appears to have never recorded with the professional band or even turned pro - indeed he opted out because he never wanted to do that... do you regard Tony Hicks as an 'original' Hollies band member ? while at the other end of the timespan I know guys who DON'T regard Peter Howarth as being a member of The Hollies even now.... Hmmm... the way I look at it is when they adopted the name "The Hollies" it was a fresh start and like many bands starting off, it can take a while to adjust to their best capabilities so members come and go, they reach a line up that gels and voila! In this case, Vic was a Hollie for less than 6 months and Don less than a year. Once Bobby came in, that was the magic formula. So, one could argue a valid case for Tony being an original member and in my books he is as he was there right at the start of their recording career. Bobby? Well, there are a few recordings with Don so technically that disqualifies him as an "original" member though no denying the moment he joined they truly took a huge leap forward. As for Peter Howarth, well whether some like it or not he is a member of the band. Anthony did ask earlier when The Hollies cease to be The Hollies for some and for me that's 1981 with the departure of Bernie and Terry. Many reasons behind that but that's for another thread!
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Post by anthony on Dec 2, 2019 0:30:42 GMT
so it's something of a 'chicken and the egg' situation as Vic Steele appears to have never recorded with the professional band or even turned pro - indeed he opted out because he never wanted to do that... do you regard Tony Hicks as an 'original' Hollies band member ? while at the other end of the timespan I know guys who DON'T regard Peter Howarth as being a member of The Hollies even now.... Hmmm... the way I look at it is when they adopted the name "The Hollies" it was a fresh start and like many bands starting off, it can take a while to adjust to their best capabilities so members come and go, they reach a line up that gels and voila! In this case, Vic was a Hollie for less than 6 months and Don less than a year. Once Bobby came in, that was the magic formula. So, one could argue a valid case for Tony being an original member and in my books he is as he was there right at the start of their recording career. Bobby? Well, there are a few recordings with Don so technically that disqualifies him as an "original" member though no denying the moment he joined they truly took a huge leap forward. As for Peter Howarth, well whether some like it or not he is a member of the band. Anthony did ask earlier when The Hollies cease to be The Hollies for some and for me that's 1981 with the departure of Bernie and Terry. Many reasons behind that but that's for another thread! Hi Baz, interesting you said the Hollies stopped being the Hollies in 1981, I can see why you could say that, really apart from the Nash reunion the Hollies have from then been a touring band, no new recordings apart from a few in recent years. Could never work out why they didn't record more LP's when Allan was still in good voice, songs like your Eyes, Find me a family are amazing, should have been part of records. I think the Hollies got cold feet after the what goes round album was slammed.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 8:10:43 GMT
Their biggest mistake was not cashing in on their No.1 UK with 'He Ain't Heavy' in 1988. I don't think Allan can be blamed either, as he released a new album in 1990.
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Post by baz on Dec 2, 2019 11:47:32 GMT
Hi Baz, interesting you said the Hollies stopped being the Hollies in 1981, I can see why you could say that, really apart from the Nash reunion the Hollies have from then been a touring band, no new recordings apart from a few in recent years. Could never work out why they didn't record more LP's when Allan was still in good voice, songs like your Eyes, Find me a family are amazing, should have been part of records. I think the Hollies got cold feet after the what goes round album was slammed.
1981 spelled the end of a Hollies unity as up till then they were always presented as a 5 piece unit and the Allan - Tony - Bernie - Terry - Bobby unit was their strongest and longest lasting. The novelty of the Nash reunion apart, it then felt more like Allan, Tony and Bobby with whoever else was around as the talents of the likes of Alan Coates and Ray Stiles were restricted to the stage and there was barely any new material to buy to give them a fair showcase, let alone new material. PeterC highlights a big problem as in 1989/1990 I was waiting for a new album by the band as the interest was there with their increased profile but it withered away. Then Allan's voice deteriorated so the entirety of the 1990's saw no new album either. The Hollies have always been a premium quality live act but up till 1981 they were also very prolific in the studio hence we have many singles and albums to enjoy and all we got after that felt like fleeting blink or you'll miss it cameos. Indeed there were some fine songs but there should had been a lot lot more so creatively, The Hollies grinded to a halt. Just imagine what might had been... an album in 1989/1990, a new album for the anniversary in 1993... they also missed the "Unplugged" craze and such a project could have been interesting. Whilst I believe there were legal issues, the fact they only recorded one track with Carl Wayne is also frustrating - an all new album with him could have been interesting and taken them in a new direction. So, that's why 1981 is the year it ends for me.
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Post by gee on Dec 2, 2019 19:40:43 GMT
Alan Coates and Ray Stiles did record with the band - Alan sang high harmonies on a number of tracks including the German chart single 'Stand By Me', 'Shine Silently', 'Your Eyes', 'Find Me A Family', 'Purple Rain', and the UK chart single 'The Woman I Love'
Alan Coates earlier plays rhythm guitar on the 'Archive Alive' / 'Reunion' live album with Graham Nash too
I would consider Alan Coates, Ray Stiles and Denis Haines later Ian Parker to be actual band members both live and in the recording studio even if 'officially' it was Clarke-Hicks-Elliott, the fact Alan Coates voice and guitar appears on some recordings then makes him a sort of 'Hollie' and he actually gave them longer service than Nash and Sylvester combined from 1981 to 2000
I think Alan Coates does deserve inclusion as does Ray Stiles and earlier Steve Stroud who played bass guitar on 'What Goes Around...' and the live Nash reunion album released years later...
They COULD have done a later studio album or two while Clarke still was in strong vocal shape after WGA... had they wanted to - as say equally The Moody Blues could also have done later studio albums after 'December' christmas album
I think in many of these 'veteran' bands cases record companies had little or no interest probably as the appeal of such artists was to a specific audience plus in those cases the record companies would have got a lesser return than from 'new' fresh artists they probably had far greater control over...
Allan Clarke moaned about being recognised in his local supermarket when 'He Ain't Heavy' was at no.1 in 1988 which probably says it all - by then the 'main' three Hollies had made their money...and playing live was largely done for the fun of it I think as they and notably Allan enjoyed still getting the spotlight and acclaim - BUT on their terms (onstage that is) and didn't want it to intrude into their private lives
thus tours and the occasional CD of hits always suited them best and was likely why they as a band were happy to just cruise along like that
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Post by Stranger on Dec 2, 2019 20:49:35 GMT
I get the impression that Allan was the one who did want to record but I could be wrong and that Reasons To Believe was the answer.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 21:21:16 GMT
Alan Coates voice and guitar appears on some recordings then makes him a sort of 'Hollie' and he actually gave them longer service than Nash and Sylvester combined from 1981 to 2000 He was with them longer than that, lasting until 2004 (the whole Carl Wayne era, and even appeared in initial photos with Peter Howarth).
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Post by anthony on Dec 2, 2019 22:08:30 GMT
Hi Baz, interesting you said the Hollies stopped being the Hollies in 1981, I can see why you could say that, really apart from the Nash reunion the Hollies have from then been a touring band, no new recordings apart from a few in recent years. Could never work out why they didn't record more LP's when Allan was still in good voice, songs like your Eyes, Find me a family are amazing, should have been part of records. I think the Hollies got cold feet after the what goes round album was slammed.
1981 spelled the end of a Hollies unity as up till then they were always presented as a 5 piece unit and the Allan - Tony - Bernie - Terry - Bobby unit was their strongest and longest lasting. The novelty of the Nash reunion apart, it then felt more like Allan, Tony and Bobby with whoever else was around as the talents of the likes of Alan Coates and Ray Stiles were restricted to the stage and there was barely any new material to buy to give them a fair showcase, let alone new material. PeterC highlights a big problem as in 1989/1990 I was waiting for a new album by the band as the interest was there with their increased profile but it withered away. Then Allan's voice deteriorated so the entirety of the 1990's saw no new album either. The Hollies have always been a premium quality live act but up till 1981 they were also very prolific in the studio hence we have many singles and albums to enjoy and all we got after that felt like fleeting blink or you'll miss it cameos. Indeed there were some fine songs but there should had been a lot lot more so creatively, The Hollies grinded to a halt. Just imagine what might had been... an album in 1989/1990, a new album for the anniversary in 1993... they also missed the "Unplugged" craze and such a project could have been interesting. Whilst I believe there were legal issues, the fact they only recorded one track with Carl Wayne is also frustrating - an all new album with him could have been interesting and taken them in a new direction. So, that's why 1981 is the year it ends for me. Think you hit the nail on the head. all your points are very valid. What a wasted opportunity 1988 hit was, a new album would have been the way to go. All we ever seemed to get was another Greatest Hits album, I would imagine no other group has had as many of these type albums. In a 1987 (I think) aussie interview Allan says they do record a lot but they don't think its good enough to put out.
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