Charting Singles

[Stranger]

Does anyone know how many individual Hollies songs charted in total around the world?

I'm pretty sure Gee had a post about this on the old forum.

[knut]

Ca 60

[gee]

Not all chart details worldwide are known especially in the sixties so a complete total is difficult to state

From chart details that are known between '(Ain't That) Just Like Me' in 1963 and 'The Woman I Love' in 1993 some 57 different Hollies songs have charted worldwide as singles (of those a fair number duly charted in more than one country)

plus one edited medley 'Holliedaze' (UK chart no.28 in 1981)

and four songs have charted again worldwide on re-issue
these were;

Just One Look - no.44 USA in 1967
Sorry Suzanne - no.34  Germany in 1977
He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother - no.1 UK / no.2 Ireland / no.20 Germany in 1988
The Air That I Breathe - no.60 UK / no.30 Ireland in 1988

also four other songs released as singles made the Dutch 'Tip' parade (only)
- however I don't think that counts as a 'official' chart hit
these were;

Goodbye Tomorrow in 1970
Hello To Romance in 1977
Amnesty in 1977
Something To Live For in 1979

while 'Draggin' My Heels' made the 'Adult contemporary' chart in Canada reaching no.31 in september 1977 (Epic 850422-11 or H) but again I don't think this counts as a full chart listing

[moorlock2003]

What about Hollies songs you heard on the radio? (To me, it's a "hit" if it got airplay). Here in S. California "Hey Willy" got FM radio play on one station, and I remember seeing a playlist with the song on it. Both it and "I'm Alive" missed the Hot 100 nationally, but the latter was the first Hollies record I heard and bought. It was a big hit on Los Angeles radio. In the '80s in New York I heard "Sandy", "Another Night", and "Take My Love and Run" on an FM station.

[gee]

I agree with your view however I think it's only considered a official  'hit' if it makes a recognised chart as such

often album tracks are played on the Radio as well - I've heard 'Charlie and Fred' played here on the radio several times also The Hollies 1966 version of Paul Simon's  'I Am A Rock'

'Son of A Rotten Gambler' got UK radio airplay quite a bit in 1974 but never charted here, likewise 'Stop in The Name of Love' in 1983, while 'Find Me A Family' actually reached no.79 here in 1989 BUT I think a single has to break into the top fifty or at least top sixty before it's classed as a hit

Are those Dutch 'Tip' parade listings for four singles to be classed as 'chart hits' ?

- and how about 'Draggin My Heels' making no.31 in that 'Adult Contemporary' chart in Canada ?


it can get rather confusing re just what is the 'official' charts in a country too - for example The Beatles 'Please Please Me' was regarded as only reaching no.2 in the UK - hence left off the EMI compilation '1' - however per sales it SHOULD have been a number one and did make no.1 in many other UK charts...it's even stated by Tony Barrow as being a number one in his linear notes on the UK PPM album sleeve !

Steve Miller Band's 'The Joker' got ALOT of radio airplay when first released...incredibly it officially never charted - much to D.J. Stuart Henry's amazement at the time ('why isn't this a hit ?' he asked in his radio show)

later used in a TV commercial like 'He Ain't Heavy' the re-issued 'The Joker' shot to number one in the UK !

so as Stuart Henry asked...what happened first time round for the single ?

also back in the sixties both EPs and even LPs could make the singles chart if enough copies were sold - albums getting into a singles chart sounds crazy but I believe a few Beatles albums DID make the UK singles chart...certainly EPs did (Cliff/Shadows, Beatles, Stones, Searchers, Manfred Mann, Dave Clark Five all had singles  charting EPs)

Another Hollies oddity concerns 'In The Hollies Style' LP in late 1964 - 'officially' it never charted in the recognised album chart (or as shown in later Hollies album discographies etc) however the NME album chart has it in their TOP TEN !!

so if ITHS sold enough copies to reach the NME album chart top ten...how come it NEVER charted in the album chart BBC were going by

it makes you wonder what was going on....

[rokinrobinoflocksley]

Regarding UK chart positions and what is considered "official", I'll give a brief overview for all the youngsters out there amongst us.

Prior to Feb 1969, there was no "official" UK chart. There were 5 major charts over various time periods (NME, Record Mirror RM, Melody Maker MM, Disc, Record Retailer RR) which were also used in the calculation of the BBC average chart for Pick of the Pops and Top of the Pops, plus 3 other minor charts over a smaller time period that were not used by the BBC (Pop Weekly, Merseybeat/Music Echo, and Top Pops/Music Now). These 8 charts were each an average composite chart based on the record shops they sampled, where the chart positions were averaged together, they did NOT total up the sales of their respective record shops.

Of the 5 major charts, NME and MM were the "biggest" 2, sampling the most number of record shops, eventually getting up into the 200's and above. The other 3 sampled the fewest, not getting above 100.

The purpose of the "official" charts beginning in Feb 1969 was to create a national chart based on actual sales.

In the mid 70s, the Guinness books people decided to create a chart book. They used NME for the 50s, Record Retailer for the 60s, and the new sales based BMRB chart for the 70s. Using NME was a good thing. Using RR was the worst possible choice, in terms of number of shops sampled (between 30 and 85), the accuracy of the data, the trouble of getting their shops to turn in their weekly results on time, the volatility of their chart positions, and their relative peak positions compared to the other charts. The only good thing about RR was they had 50 positions charted each week, the most of any chart for half of the 60s.

Decades later, the "official" charts company decided to go back in time before Feb 1969, and declare which charts were to be now considered as "official" for the 50s and 60s. They chose to go along with Guinness, NME for the 50s, RR for the 60s, BMRB and what followed them for beyond Feb 1969. But ladies and gentlemen, that was not how it was in real historical time.

Regarding the 2 most famous records to be penalized by using RR as "official" for the 60s (and there were lots others): Please Please Me by The Beatles was #1 for 2 weeks on NME, MM, and Disc, and 3 weeks on the BBC average. 270 record shops were sampled to determine this. Over at RR, PPM peaked at #2, based on a sampling of 30 record shops. Which is more historically accurate, #1 based on 270, or #2 based on 30?

Case 2: 19th Nervous Breakdown by The Rolling Stones was #1 for 3 weeks on NME, MM, Disc, and the BBC average chart, based on close to 500 record shops. Over at RR, 19th peaked at #2 based on at most 85 record shops. Which is historically more accurate, 500 or 85?

Choosing RR to represent the 60s was the worst possible decision, fact. Better alternatives were NME, MM, or the BBC. They were way more accurate than RR. If 50 chart position were needed for the entire 60s, then a good compromise would have been to use MM, NME, or the BBC for the top positions, and fill in the lower positions with RR. That way you get accuracy plus the most positions.

One last nugget, it is frequently stated that The Beatles Penny Lane/Strawberry Field Forever did not reach #1. That is partially true, it peaked at #2 on NME, Disc, RR, and the BBC average. But it peaked at #1 for 3 weeks on Melody Maker, the chart that was sampling the most record shops in the 60s, over 250 at one point.

But don't take my word for it, you can read UK chart expert/guru Alan Smith's huge article on the subject. He spent years researching it, and tweaking it when he found new information. Here: www.ukmix.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=103263

No doubt The Hollies were also affected by this.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming, cheers !!

[dirtyfaz]

I have to say I always thought the Guinness charts were flawed. Thanks for that info rokinrobinoflocksley for the clarifiction. I will have a look at that link re chart info.

I have to say that as a teen and early 20s through the 60s and living in Australia I read religiously NME and MM. I felt they were to 2 important overseas mags of the time and really helped me keep up on what was going on in England music wise. Music was my vice. Didn't drink or smoke so I spent all my money on records and even got to import them for myself. I can't remember to exact time frame but those 2 magazines were imported into Australia and I seem to remember them only being a week or 2 old when they hit the newsstands. They were my lifeline.

Chris

[dirtyfaz]

Jeez what a read is Alan Smith's and the others who responded.

[knut]

I Can't Let Go was the Hollies single most affected as it was 2 weeks at no 1 on NME.

[cameron]

I think the Hollies suffered twice - both being stifled by these historical charts and also lack of promotion by EMI, as after 1966, they made far less money with the Hollies' music thanks to their groundbreaking "leasing back" deal.

By the 1970s, the record charts were in a terrible state. It was very easy to cheat the figures that record shops returned to make a single appear to sell better than it did. This directly influenced the official BBC radio playlist and Top Of The Pops with their song choices. Many hits in the late 1970s and 1980s were actually there because the record company threw money at making it look like more records sold than they actually did. They'd give record shops incentive to sell a certain record over another one through financial discounts and bribes. Of course, no one was batting for the Hollies' team as EMI merely distributed their music and made very little money out of them compared to other acts. Conversely, any Hollies single from the early 1970s onwards got where it did on the charts purely from it's own merit.

The Hollies' studio albums actually sold well too. The highlights were "Stay With The Hollies" (UK No.2), "Hollies (1965)" (UK No.8), "Evolution" (UK No. 13 - I think the NME chart was No. 8, but can't check), "Hollies' Greatest" (UK No.1 for SIX weeks!), "Hollies Sing Dylan" (UK No.2 according to NME, though listed as No. 3 elsewhere), "Hollies Live Hits" (UK No.4) and "20 Golden Greats" (UK No.2).

I think radio play is a key point too. "Rockin' Robin" was a UK radio favourite in 1964, as was "Very Last Day" in 1966, but neither released as a single. Elsewhere in the world, apparently in Canada, you were just as likely to hear "No More Riders" as the A-side "The Air That I Breathe" in 1974 and radio play alone got "Too Young To Be Married" to be released as a single in New Zealand in 1970.

[knut]

In the Hollies style was NME no 7.

[Stranger]

Very interesting post, Sir Robin, thanks! (I commend you on your choice of movie star!)

[greengoddess]

Very interesting post from rokinrobin. I had no idea it was all so unreliable.

[rokinrobinoflocksley]

Regarding my above post on the UK charts, it was not my intent to trash the 60s Record Retailer chart, they were a good chart, providing a valuable historical service in documenting the lower chart position rungs for half of the 60s when no other chart did so, even though they were the least accurate of the 5 major charts due to their low number of sampled record shops.

The problem is with the Official Charts Co claiming decades after the fact that RR is now the “official” chart of the 60s when there was no such thing prior to Feb 1969. Sorry Charlie, RR may be the “official” 60s chart of the OCC, but it is not the "official" 60s chart of the UK, no matter what they say. Back then there were charts of only greater and lesser accuracy, no “official” chart, RR being the least representative, Melody Maker being the most representative.

RR represented about 13% of the record shops sampled during the 60s, RM about 3%, Disc about 13%, NME about 27%, and MM about 44%. Record Retailer were good guys, an important piece of the pie at 13%. The OCC are the bad guys for rewriting 60s history and giving RR credit for 100% of the 60s pie.

----------

For my own amusement (I had too much time on my hands), I did a statistical analysis on all the Top 10 records of the 60s based on the Tiscali UK Record Charts Cross Reference Spreadsheet, to see how the chart peaks of each record differed across the 5 major charts. For each record, how far away was its peak on each chart from the average peak across all 5 charts? RR had the most outliers, and the widest gaps peak to average peak, across the entire 60s, and also in the 3 separate subdivided time periods in which there were only 5, 4, and 3 charts in business.

I won’t bore you with all the numbers, but it is absolutely clear that Record Retailer was the least representative record chart of the 60s, Melody Maker the most representative. If you put the 2 together, MM for all its of positions, and adding the lower positions of RR, then you have the most accurate 60s chart with the most positions. Unless you wish to manually recalculate 500 weekly charts, based on an average of the 5 charts weighted by the number of record shops each chart sampled, ha.

[gee]

As Knut confirms 'In The Hollies Style' made no.7 in the NME Album chart - and was in their chart for a number of weeks, it seems very odd it made NO entry at all in that so called 'official' chart (that we can see was not 'official' anyway)

if ITHS sold enough to chart and make no.7 in the NME chart it's complete absence from other album charts suggests something weird was going on - even The Hollies 'official' (that dreaded word again !) website has ITHS album as not charting at all...


I see EMI believed 'Please Please Me' failed to make no.1 by omitting it when compiling their Beatles '1' CD too...!

[eric]

Thank you Members for your insightful comments on the compilation of the UK charts in the Sixties.

It had been a long standing mystery to me as to why “In The Hollies Style” failed to make the “official” UK albums chart. It didn’t seem possible that this LP, which was issued in between two top 10 albums in “Stay With The Hollies” (no. 2) and “Hollies” (no. 8) and in the midst of a string of top 10 hit singles, failed to chart. It made no sense to me and I now know that it is nonsense!

It would be pleasing to see The Hollies website correct this anomaly and give long overdue recognition to this very fine album.

[gee]

Well I have today emailed Rob Haywood pointing this out to him and requesting he amend the 'official' website Hollies albums chart placing details to show ITHS as being no.7 albeit in 'NME Album chart'

whether I'll get any response or any agreement we can only wait and see....

[rokinrobinoflocksley]

Mar 6, 2018 17:49:05 GMT gee said:

I see EMI believed 'Please Please Me' failed to make no.1 by omitting it when compiling their Beatles '1' CD too...!

And that is such a shame, or outrage!  Back when PPM was #1 on the singles charts, EMI embraced it as such on the back of the PPM album, and on several EPs.  Flash forward to 2000, and the modern EMI contradict themselves, abandon true history, and instead go for the rewritten lie.  Unbelievable that a record company would credit an artist with fewer #1 records than they actually achieved!  I recall Beatles producer George Martin being furious with the authors of the Guinness chart book for denying PPM #1 status.

The "1" CD should have included all 32 #1's across all major UK and US charts, not just the 27 they came up with by following only Record Retailer and Billboard.  (In the US, Billboard was the granddaddy of the charts, and the last man standing, but during the 50s to 80s was a co-equal to Cash Box and Record World.)  In addition to PPM, the "1" CD should have included Strawberry Fields Forever (#1 on Melody Maker), Twist and Shout (#1 on Cash Box and Music Vendor/Record World), Nowhere Man (#1 on Record World), and For You Blue (#1 as a b-side on Billboard and Record World).

Some have argued they couldn't fit all 32 songs on a single CD, well, that's not my problem.  They should have either made it a 2 CD set, or issued separate "1" CDs in the UK and US, or picked the biggest 27 #1's of the UK/US and put them on a single CD.  But no, why do that when they could instead rewrite history and deny PPM and the other 4 songs their rightful #1 peaks?

Grrrrrr.....

[rokinrobinoflocksley]

Mar 7, 2018 10:23:04 GMT gee said:

Well I have today emailed Rob Haywood pointing this out to him and requesting he amend the 'official' website Hollies albums chart placing details to show ITHS as being no.7 albeit in 'NME Album chart'

whether I'll get any response or any agreement we can only wait and see....

Yes!  As an advocate for The Hollies, Rob should fix all chart positions on the "official" website to show the max peak of all records across all the UK charts. "I Can't Let Go" at #1, etc.  Maybe throw in the US peaks as well if he's so inclined.  If it would help, send him the link above to Alan Smith's huge history of the UK charts article, and/or my 2 summary posts above. I think we first need to win Rob's mind over to the truth, and then he would be more eager to make the chart position corrections.  It could be that he does not know the unvarnished truth, most people don't...

[eric]

Following on from rockinrobinoflocksley’s comments above on the “1”CD, this release could have been a 2CD issue by including the no. 1 hits from around the world. After all, The Beatles were a world-wide phenomenon.

Here in Australia “I Saw Her Standing There”, “Twist and Shout”, “All My Loving”, “Long Tall Sally”, “I Should Have Known Better”, “Rock And Roll Music”, “Nowhere Man”, “Magical Mystery Tour” and “Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da” all topped the charts, either as singles or as the lead track on an EP. And this list excludes some double A side tracks such as “Strawberry Fields Forever”, “I’m Down”, “Norwegian Wood” and “Revolution” that arguably should have been included.

Furthermore, aside from the commercial consideration of song writing royalties for non-Lennon/McCartney compositions, it is difficult to understand why “I Saw Her Standing There”, “Twist and Shout” and “Long Tall Sally” were excluded from the 1962-1966 (“The Red Album”) compilation.

In fairness to EMI Australia, they did include all of the above 1963-1965 songs on 2 locally released Greatest Hits compilations in the Sixties.

[rokinrobinoflocksley]

In case anyone would like to see Hollies singles chart positions across all the UK charts, check out this dropbox link. This spreadsheet used to be on the Tiscali website, but this webpage has since disappeared from it. Don't know who put it together. Supposedly this covers all UK records by all artists across the major UK charts from 1952 to 1979 except the BBC, some sheet music stuff before then, along with US Billboard peaks. As with anything this huge, I've found a few mistakes here and there.  For some reason it doesn't include Melody Maker chart peaks beyond late 1969 (though MM continued on thru May 1988).  NME peaks are continued thru 1979.

www.dropbox.com/s/keco7en8klgx602/TiscaliUKRecordsAllChartsByArtistLastNameDateJW.xlsx?dl=0

[dirtyfaz]

Nice and Thanks