I Can't Tell The Bottom From The Top

[cameron]

I've always loved this song, and much has been said over the years of the new remix that creeped out with no fanfare on "The Long Road Home" boxset in 2003, and subsequently was used on more recent compilations. I know Gee has levied with some success to get the original mix restored to regular circulation. We've always said that the new mix cuts out the acoustic guitar on the bridge section and through to the end of the song. I've recently got some new speakers for my Hi-Fi and for the first time in seemingly forever, CDs don't sound too bad on my set up so I was comparing the mixes earlier: 

The new mix actually brings the whole orchestra right to the front of the mix throughout. The original stereo mix features the band fairly upfront with the orchestra fading in and out, and the original mono mix for the single (I believe the last Hollies single to be issued in mono in the UK) has the orchestra barely audible at all. The middle section especially, where the acoustic guitar is missing now, features the deep tones of the strings bouncing about louder than ever and spread in full stereo, culminating in a beautiful orchestral swirl before the final chorus. I've actually found new appreciation for this remix, and it makes me wonder what prompted them to do it - does anyone know? I know the band were particularly displeased with "Gasoline Alley Bred" when it came out, slowed down considerably to shift the key several semitones lower and Bobby's drums mixed right back. Alan Parsons who engineered it has since said it's probably the worst mix he's ever done. I wonder if they'll remix that next? Perhaps they were equally displeased with the final original mix of "I Can't Tell The Bottom From The Top"? 

If you haven't revisited the new 2003 mix in a while, it's on "The Long Road Home" and I believe "Midas Touch". Compare the two mixes side by side, with headphones preferably - the new mix has a great clarity and high quality that leaves the old mix far behind. I just wish I could say the same for 'that' remix of "King Midas In Reverse"! 

[gee]

yes it was the final mono UK single in 1970 with 'Mad Professor Blyth' also in mono on the 'B' side of Parlophone R5837

it can be found in mono on 'Orchestral Heaven' compilation CD along with 'He Ain't Heavy...' also in mono

the stereo version with acoustic guitar on vinyl in the UK is on 'Hollies Greatest vol 2' UK LP Parlophone PCS 7148 of March 1972 and then on 'History of The Hollies' EMI  EMSP 650 of 1975 then 'Twenty Golden Greats' in 1978

Ron Furmanek did a mix of the UK stereo version on the USA  '30th Anniversary Collection' CD set (Imperial  7 99917 2)

the later mix minus acoustic guitar can be found on 'The Hollies Greatest Hits' 'clouds' cover CD of 2001

If I remember correctly an alternate mix with the strings further forward and slightly longer than the UK stereo version was on the Australian album 'Hollies Greatest' Music For Pleasure MFP 5850

I recall when asked why they had  dropped the acoustic guitar from the later mix Bobby replied; 'because it was out of time with the drums' or words to that effect...

I pointed out to Tim Chacksfield that a number of Hollies fans (chiefly you guys on here plus others I know) wanted the version with the acoustic guitar part retained as that was the original 1970 hit, hence it's been reinstated later, but I agree the later mix minus the guitar does feature Johnny Scott's orchestration rather more

[cameron]

So the mix on "Long Road Home" is Ron Furmanek's? I always thought the Hollies were against his mixes, hence them re-mixing some of their previously unreleased in the UK material like "Man With No Expression".

I'd be interested to track that alternative mix down. Is that the same Music For Pleasure LP released in the UK in 1985 simply titled "The Hollies" featuring a previously unreleased "Poison Ivy", "Zip-A-Dee Doo-Dah" and "Little Bitty Pretty One"? That's the only MFP LP I can find that features "I Can't Tell The Bottom From The Top".

I don't feel like the acoustic guitar is out of time with the drums but it is a bit random how it suddenly comes in when it doesn't feature earlier in the song.

There's also a nice little intro on the "At Abbey Road 1966-1970" set with Bobby announcing the title, Elton John playing a bit on the piano and then Tony counting them in. I'm not sure which mix is featured though, I think just the standard stereo mix.

[dirtyfaz]

An Interesting bit of discussion here about I Can't Tell The Bottom From The Top. I have a few thoughts that I will throw into the mix about these versions discussed by Cameron and Gee.

First thing I must say is that I am a fan of most of Ron Furmanek's remixes and his mixing of the vocals over the left and right channels was very similar to how some of the Hollies vocal stereo mixes were done. He did the best he could with the limited multi track the Hollies recorded on in the early days. They usually used 2 tracks for the instruments and did one set of vocal on one track and another set on another track on the 4 track tape they were using. When they moved up to 8 track the mixes improved as well.

I have always thought that the 30th Anniversary version had very little remixing if any. I don't think too much remixing was done for all the tracks after ICTTBFTT. If you take out the studio chatted before the track then is is the same length as the original stereo version. It also has the acoustic guitar there.
I also think the longer version on the Australian Hollies Greatest MFP LP from the mid 70s (I think)is the same or very similar version to the later supposed remix without the acoustic guitar. It doesn't have the acoustic guitar as well.

My version of At Abbey Road doesn't have the studio chatter etc you mention Cam and is the same length as the original version but I can't hear the acoustic guitar in it.

The Long Road Home set doesn't have the Furmanek version but uses the longer non acoustic guitar version. Ron's mixes turn up all over the place on different comps issued around the world. I would have thought in general that those oseas companies sourced from EMI UK the tapes. That being the case then somebody is pulling out the wrong tapes/mixes.

Cam no, the 85 MFP LP/CD isn't the same as the Australian. The Australian track listing is unique to there.

Just a question about this acoustic guitar. Does it come in around 2.30 on the right channel?

Does anyone know if or how much The Hollies used ADT, you know that invention to satisfy a lazy John Lennon?

[cameron]

I agree dirtyfaz, I don't think any of the post-1968 tracks on the 30th Anniversary Collection were remixed because the original stereo mixes are so good. Unlike the Beatles, the Hollies didn't appear to do so much bouncing down of tracks. That's why the new Sgt. Pepper stereo mix works, because by the time they sync all the pre-bounced session tapes up, they've got six, seven or sometimes eight tracks to play with, despite Pepper being recorded on a 4-track. Same for the Pet Sounds remix, they had four instrumental tracks and up to eight vocal tracks to use. The Hollies were famously "one take" specialists, requiring few overdubs to make the song work with most bits done live together. I know the 'On A Carousel' session was staged for the cameras, but I imagine that kind of set up with them all playing/singing together was quite common.

Re the Abbey Road set, the chat is tagged onto the end of the previous track. If you locate "I Can't Tell The Bottom From The Top" and run it back a bit, you'll hear the chatter. As a long time Hollies fan, I doubt you've ever listened to the set from start to finish because you've heard nearly all of the songs before! I did the same, I had the Abbey Road set for years before I found the chatter. "Gasoline Alley Bred" has some too, which revealed to me how the released version has been slowed down and is in the wrong key as during the chatter, Tony plays the riff on his guitar, which is a few semitones higher than the start of the track. Plus the surviving live versions of the song also confirm this.

So is the Australian mix the one contained on "Long Road Home"? I don't have the 1985 UK MFP LP, but know where there is a copy in a local record shop so I'll get it and compare.

You're right about the acoustic guitar, prior to around the 2:30 mark, it's not audible in the mix.

I couldn't say for sure about the Hollies using ADT. Although they shared the studios with the Beatles, they worked completely differently, often at a more technically advanced rate. Their big trick was to not use headphones so that the vocals were more in sync. Due to the distance from the control room tape recorder and the headphones in the studio, plus the distance from the microphone back up to the tape recorder, a small delay would be added to the vocal when putting it onto tape - though not that you'd really notice it. The Hollies got around this by using out of phase loud speakers. They pointed two speakers at each other and reversed the polarity on one of them. By placing a bi-directional mic in the middle (that only captures the sound in front and behind, not from the sides), the signal from the speakers cancels out in the middle and isn't captured by the microphone. This allowed them to stand around one mic and lay various vocal overdubs over without listening to each other through headphones so they could get really tight harmonies. Into the 1970s when the 24 track tape machine came in, they'd often add their vocals two, sometimes three times as standard. None of them have ever made reference to my knowledge of using ADT.

[cameron]

I've just picked up the UK Hollies LP on Music For Pleasure and it's the same original stereo mix with the guitar. I'm finding no results at all for "Hollies Greatest" on MFP-5850, is that the correct catalogue number? I'm interested to track the LP down if it's got the alternative mix on it. It just shows up as the same as the UK release, with "Legendary Series" on the cover. Same track list though. 

[Stranger]

For a bit of background on the song I read an interview from just after it's release where Allan Clarke says he's not happy with the record, he blames the Hollies performance rather than the song itself.

[dirtyfaz]

That UK MFP issue you mention is not the same as the one MFP 5850 issued earlier in Australia. The tracks on the OZ one are I Can't Tell The Bottom From The top (long version), Wheels On Fire, Dear Eloise, I Can't Let Go, Pay You Back With Interest, You Love 'Cos You Like It, Just One Look, Elevated Observations, Please Sign Your Letters, Stop Stop Stop, Mickey's Monkey, I'm Alive.

I should have known about the studio chat being on the end of the previous track. That happens a bit but I think it should be included at the start of the track as it relates to that track.

I'm not sure if that early version of ICTTBFTT is exactly the same as the Long Road Home version and those other non acoustic guitar versions. They all run about 4.13 to 4.17 depending on how much silence is at the end of the track. Cam check your emails as I will send the early version.

I have never heard of the Hollies using ADT either but read somewhere on the Hoffman forum that they had. I just thought I would throw it out there.

[cameron]

Interesting how Allan Clarke said that he didn't like the song, it was a regular staple of Hollies concerts right through to the late 1970's. I think their distain at their records around this time has never been truly realised what - or rather who - was at fault. Sadly that's Alan Parsons. He was a young engineer working his way up through the ranks and "I Can't Tell The Bottom From The Top" was the first Hollies single that he was the chief engineer for. I've a feeling this is why we have two mixes - Alan's mix which is the one we all know, and perhaps Peter Bown's mix which is the orchestral-heavy mix. This would make sense as he was the more experienced engineer and his background/training had been in classical music.

Unfortunately Alan Parsons did them a disservice on the follow-up single, "Gasoline Alley Bred". Bobby has expressed his disappointment at the mix before - his drums are too far back in the mix. What's not been mentioned by the band is that the whole track is slowed down, as I said above. You can see them rather awkwardly singing it in the lower key on their Top Of The Pops performance of it.
However, Alan Parsons was young at the time and did go on to become the chief engineer for Hollies albums for a short while, notably "Hollies (1974)" - but again, "The Air That I Breathe" presents another problem. Alan said when he was mixing it, there was a problem with the tape machine and he had to manually sync the tracks up (I'm not sure how that happens, but that's what he said) and the result was a track that's slightly out of tune, despite him 'fixing' it. I could forgive this, but he went on to say that Allan Clarke had a tendency to sing flat when they were recording. I actually think it's Alan Parsons' ears at fault, not Allan Clarke, based on the reasons I've stated above.

I'm still intrigued by this Australian LP, mainly because I can't find reference to it anywhere after a bit of Googling.

Thanks for the email Chris, I've just had a listen. That's definitely the mix that features on "The Long Road Home" boxset, ie, the mix without guitar.

[dirtyfaz]

I have been listening to the different versions of ICTTBFTT over the last few days and have come to the conclusion that the early longer mix on the Australian LP Hollies Greatest on the MFP label is the same version as the longer one issued in the early 2000s. This longer mix has the acoustic guitar on the right channel missing from approx 2.30. The drumming is on that channel in its place. This version also has a cleaner vocal and doesn't have the echo (?) effect on the vocals that drift slightly into the right channel.

Makes me wonder about Bobby's comments about the non acoustic guitar mix.

Ron Furmanek's mix from the early 1990s is the shorter mix with all the elements in the correct place, only adding the extra studio chatter prior to the track, leaving me believe he maybe didn't remix that track but it was remastered. They don't mean the same thing.

[moorlock2003]

The band had a tendency to follow a ballad with another ballad. ICTTBFTT is OK, but I think HAHHMB should have been followed by a rocker, or at least something uptempo. "Son of a rotten gambler" was a disastrous follow-up to "The Air....".

[cameron]

Jul 16, 2017 7:19:22 GMT dirtyfaz said:

Makes me wonder about Bobby's comments about the non acoustic guitar mix.

If there's one thing I've learnt about the Hollies, it's that they often remember things with rose-tinted glasses. For example, they all insist that the film crew filmed the actual "On A Carousel" session, despite the EMI Studios log and the Hollies' own sessionography proving that the track was recorded several days earlier, as if the clip of them miming to a backing track wasn't enough evidence. I feel that Bobby's comment about ICTTBFTT was much the same. There's no indication whatsoever of it being remixed for "The Long Road Home". My guess is that the master was probably sent to Australia by mistake for its inclusion on a stereo LP (remember, this was the last Hollies single to be released in mono), and rounded up again for "The Long Road Home", as happens so often on these luxurious boxset packages. We've just effectively proved that the mix was around in the 1970s. Alternative mixes seemed to be often sent abroad - whether by accident or on purpose, it's unknown. Germany and Australia seem to turn up the most alternative Hollies mixes. 

My guess is that it was created as an alternative mix, as was so often done in those days. The guys at EMI would often send the Hollies home with various "rushes" of songs, mixed in a few minutes at the end of the session for the band to take home on 1/4 tape (or acetate if they were lucky), for them to use for reference. This would have been more common on tracks that had orchestrations added. It was very rare for a track to be recorded in the studio with the orchestra, because this relied on at least a demo recording for the respective arranger to create an accompanying score. So the basic track would be laid down and finished, with the orchestra added on top. Sometimes it would take weeks, even months to add the orchestra. Sometimes the final mix would be prepared and the band would take copies home to evaluate, though the Hollies never seemed to be afforded this luxury, as they often voiced distain at final mixes at times. 

I think they followed ICTTBFTT with perhaps their most perfect 1970s single - Gasoline Alley Bred. Then it was followed with their heaviest single, Hey Willy. Not forgetting Long Cool Woman after, The Baby, Magic Woman Touch... it was quite a few upbeat tracks before the ballad phase set in. 

[gee]

Allan Clarke's 'Curly Billy' was a rocker with dense guitars too - that made the top thirty in the UK but it was 'The Air That I Breathe' soaring to number two in the UK and no.6 USA that really heralded their ballads obsession in the seventies

As 'He Ain't Heavy' made no.3 in the UK in 1969 and no.7 in the USA, then ICTTBFTT reached no.7 plus both did well elsewhere overseas....while the great 'Gasoline Alley Bred' strangely stalled at no.14 in the UK and didn't chart stateside the premise for more ballads was set by 1970, later after Clarke's return following 'Air' being so successful they plus Ron Richards and Polydor seem to have decided ONLY a ballad would give them big hits thereafter - hence 'Gambler', 'I'm Down', 'Sandy', etc...

being perhaps far too 'set in their ways' (a legacy from Ron Richards I expect) and seeing Nash's more adventurous ideas fail (Midas/ Butterfly)....as happened again re 'Distant Light', 'Romany' etc you can see why they became so conservative in their attitude BUT it didn't work and they should have changed course with their style on singles far more quickly rather than just keep on putting out ballads hoping for another 'Heavy' / 'Air'

when they did put out something different they opted for unlikely to chart at home numbers like 'Daddy' and 'Wotsit' ! - after they failed to chart it was back to the ballads ! ('Romance' / 'Amnesty' / 'Something To Live For'/ 'Heartbeat' etc) all either slow or at the most 'mid-paced'

for singles they ignored their rockier side on powering uptempo tracks like: 'Out On The Road' / 'Down On The Run' / 'Iceberg'/ Time Machine Jive'/ 'Look Out Johnny'/ 'Crocodile Woman'/ '48 Hour Parole'/ 'Louise' /  'Crossfire' / 'Burn Out' / 'That'll Be The Day'/ 'If The Lights Go Out'  etc as possible UK singles - tracks which displayed the livelier far more easily accessable side of the band with Hicks guitar firmly to the fore...

while brisk lighter numbers such as; 'Sweet Country Calling', 'Come Down To The Shore', 'Draggin My Heels', 'Caracas' etc  just might have worked as singles too

to many in the wider public The Hollies became an increasingly 'dreary' sounding mega serious band in the seventies...

the KEY single release was the follow up to 'Air' in 1974 when renewed wider public interest in them was at it's strongest which they got so badly wrong with 'Gambler'

they even did it again in 1985 relegating 'Laughter Turns To Tears' to just 12 inch single bonus track...and going with another slow ballad 'Too Many Hearts Get Broken'...which failed to chart (surprise surprise)

[knut]

Dirtyfaz: The Australian MFP 5850 is not the same as you list. See here: www.discogs.com/Hollies-Hollies-Greatest-/release/8276593

[knut]

This must be the one you mean: www.ebay.com.au/itm/THE-HOLLIES-GREATEST-VINYL-LP-AUSTRALIA-/222167322069?hash=item33ba344dd5:g:aowAAOSwZ1BXcI81

[dirtyfaz]

Knut
The Discog entry is incorrect. They don't have a photo of the cover and the track listing is incorrect for the LP they mention and the catalogue number they use.

The ebay one is correct and that should be the one shown on discog. (Music For Pleasure MFP5850 Hollies' Greatest.)

[knut]

Yes the Discogs entry must be a later release with a different number. I found out I had the one you described. Thanks!

[dirtyfaz]

With that discog entry they have the track listing for the US Capitol budget Hollies Greatest. If you look at the tracks for the Capitol N16056 issued in the US and Canada they are the same. Capitol also issued a Vol 2,

Cheers

[Deleted]

[sandy]

Dec 12, 2020 15:08:12 GMT peterc said:

.....oooh, can we just pause and extra appreciate the band at their peak, live, imho💕💕🎶 That's just an amazing live performance,lead vocals, harmonies...sublime👌😉

[Deleted]

Actually, that is 1975 footage that has been redubbed with the 1970 studio audio.  Here's the original undubbed soundtrack (still great, but performed in a lower key)...

[sandy]

Dec 13, 2020 9:56:00 GMT peterc said:

Actually, that is 1975 footage that has been redubbed with the 1970 studio audio.  Here's the original undubbed soundtrack (still great, but performed in a lower key)...

...OOPS!!!!!😂😂😂😂Sounded good!😂😂😂😂
But yes, live in lower key still brill😉😂(why overdub a great ive performance??)

[Deleted]

As things are quite on here at the moment...  Here's Elton John's own version, presumably recorded within weeks of him playing on The Hollies' single:

[JamesT]

Sounds like mellotron replacing the strings on this version. The Hollies version is far more polished, and Elton's piano work more subtle and low in the mix. Thanks for sharing, Peter.

[Mevrouw Bee]

Mar 2, 2021 7:45:49 GMT JamesT said:

Sounds like mellotron replacing the strings on this version. The Hollies version is far more polished, and Elton's piano work more subtle and low in the mix. Thanks for sharing, Peter.

From what I understand, Elton was in his "elevator music" phase in which he was hired to record what's known as Muzak that you hear in literal elevators, in stores, offices, etc...Just one of his many session jobs...