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Post by gee on Sept 20, 2020 12:58:07 GMT
In a way Allan only had himself to blame - he was a co-founder of the band with Nash and Haydock but it appears that he never really got involved with actually 'leading' their band...
He was very happy to be lead vocalist, a chief co-songwriter etc but it was essentially Nash-Hicks and later Hicks (increasingly in association with Elliott) who drove and guided the band from within it's ranks and up to 1971 Allan seemed mostly content with that set up
- it was probably seeing the vast success of Nash stateside plus his then from 1969-70 being taken far more seriously by the music press as a part of CSN / CSNY plus solo artist....while despite the fine music he was making in The Hollies Allan found himself in lacey shirt and light trousers uniform and being seen (wrongly) as a 'mere pop star' by the music press which clearly made his personal frustration grow but he'd allowed that situation to develop by never taking a proper active leading role for the group he had co-founded
by his own admission Allan had followed Graham's ideas ('Lullaby To Tim' being a prime example) then Tony's ('Dylan') but even tho' he was providing the band with great songs and taking younger Terry Sylvester 'under his wing' as a songwriter...still Allan for such a vital key band figure and trademark lead voice had an incredibly low profile as a group spokesman or musical direction influence even as late as 1971 so his feeling the need to 'do his own album' can be understood but as I said he was really at least partly responsible for his own situation
The situation re Clarkey 'leading his band' never altered much later as by then Tony was firmly established as the chief Hollie 'calling the shots' (having found so many big hits plus co-written original hits for the band) and his having done all the hard work of taking the responsibility for so long (much as back in the sixties co-leader Nash had undertaken virtually all the group's main and key 'PR' work with the blessings of the rest of the band)
this tells us why Clarkey had apparently so little say re Terry's departure - plus the fact he himself seems to have been at least a part of the 'issue' between Terry and the band which made Tony need to act like a football referee re first the yellow card...and ultimately having to produce the RED card - despite how Bobby put it re 'the trap was sprung' etc I don't think Tony wanted to boot Terry out at that point and lose his key high harmony voice but NO WAY would he then allow Allan to go from the band again...thus if it was a case of choosing one or the other...
....so Terry probably talked his way out of the band (can you believe that ??)
Had Clarkey only had more of the drive and self confidence of Nash, and the focused determined attitude of Hicks re The Hollies he would have been in a far higher position within the band's structure over the sixties and in a more powerful position re influencing their musical direction which by 1978 was really a big frustration for him
Ironic but when they finally followed Clarkey's idea re an album project - 'Buddy Holly' - it proved a commercial disaster and probably to a great extent the 'final straw' re Polydor's interest in them plus Terry and Bernie's time with the band despite it actually being the Bruce Welch sessions that actually ended it
did Allan really envisage them doing the 'Buddy Holly' songs in that keyboard over dominated style ? - Pete Wingfield and Tony probably called the shots when they actually got down to arranging and recording the album...which headed quickly into the deletion bins in Woollies for 50 UK pence !
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Post by rokinrobinoflocksley on Sept 20, 2020 14:54:58 GMT
Is there some way we could invite Allan to this site, and set up a thread of questions for him here? No pressure or timetable for him to respond, we could just throw out the questions, he could chime in when it's convenient. Sort of an ongoing/multi-year project.
He would get good solid excellent questions from us 'more knowledgeable and appreciative' fans, who pay attention to small details. I would think he'd get a good kick out of it, he could enlighten us with what he wants to communicate, and we'd get a chance to wade into the minutia of his career and life. A win-win situation for all !!
So who among us has the inside contacts to get to Allan directly, and propose this to him? Is there a better Hollies site out there than us?
So lettit be written, so lettit be done... !!!
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Post by stuball on Sept 20, 2020 15:08:14 GMT
Re the Calvert and Sylvester departures: follow the money.
I believe, as in most things in life, it may have all come down to the filthy lucre: with The Hollies recording contract coming to an end, keeping Bernie and Terry on salary might have been way too rich for the reduced group income. After all, paying two well-remunerated employees to spend 6 months of the year sitting on their duffs at home, when the only future source of 'group income' was constant touring, doesn't make a lot of sense. Cheaper to hire sidemen for future touring and the occasional quickie recording session.
And so they were 'engineered' out of the band. Bernie, by being told 'he looked too old...bad for the group image', and 'not up to snuff for recording sessions'. Insulted, and so he walked. And Terry, likely 'baited' into losing his temper, and subsequently quitting.
All just conjecture of course, but to me, it certainly makes sense. Or perhaps, put more accurately... 'dollars and cents'.
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Post by Mevrouw Bee on Sept 20, 2020 15:58:14 GMT
Keeping in mind that many musicians -- like artists in general -- are introverts. They just want to create and play. We can lay blame all we want but you can't make people be what they aren't.
Speaking as the wife of an introvert musician...
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Post by Stranger on Sept 20, 2020 16:34:27 GMT
Maybe Allan would do a Q&A for the forum for Christmas or something... if we came up with 10 questions.
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Post by sandy on Sept 20, 2020 16:49:35 GMT
Keeping in mind that many musicians -- like artists in general -- are introverts. They just want to create and play. We can lay blame all we want but you can't make people be what they aren't. Speaking as the wife of an introvert musician... I think there's a lot in that. When Graham was in the band, he was totally dominating, in every single way.I don't think they ' chose ' him as a spokesman, I think he just jumped up to give his opinion on anything and everything without ever needing to be asked! Allan didn't want to be the leader..he had to inherit that role partly after Graham left, on stage, certainly, if not in the running of the band .Allan has always been quieter, and yes,I would say naturally a much quieter and more private person. After concerts, if there was a large group of people, he would literally scurry away, but if it was just a couple of people, he'd feel more comfortable, and actually be very happy to chat.The chat onstage was often blurted out,and came out sometimes quite brusque, but it was just bluff humour covering him maybe finding it difficult to project...it wasn't his character.He always said he got nervous beforehand,and wanted to be anywhere else, just before going on.He used to prefer to be alone beforehand. I don't think,for a number of reasons that Allan would want an in depth Interview right now, much as we have questions to pose! Firstly, it is such a long time ago now.....I find it hard to remember details of 20 years ago, let alone 55 plus years??It would be a big ask! It's ok just recounting the main tales, as he has been so often in the last year.Those are much related tales, and therefore easy to recall and discuss. The details and minutiae which we, as fans would love to know( 'cos we're geeky😉), will not be as readily recollectable , not surprisingly!!!! That's a whole torrent of water under the bridge! Secondly, he has moved on so,so much now!!! Allan agrees to these interviews to gain exposure for his album, let's face it, that's how it works. He would be much more interested in talking about what he's doing right now,I suspect. He has said, he lives a day at a time, and I don't think he's too caught up in the past...which is pretty amazing at this stage👌😊 He still does his talking through his music... So, much as we would will it to happen, I just think it won't happen.😉
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Post by baz on Sept 20, 2020 17:21:34 GMT
did Allan really envisage them doing the 'Buddy Holly' songs in that keyboard over dominated style ? - Pete Wingfield and Tony probably called the shots when they actually got down to arranging and recording the album...which headed quickly into the deletion bins in Woollies for 50 UK pence ! Good question and when one considers where Allan was at on his solo recordings, it does get one wondering if he thought a Buddy Holly album might help push the band back into a rockier direction (which was exactly what they needed to do at that point in time and could have pulled off) but alas, bands being bands, others having their input and Allan not being forceful enough, it turned into what it is. "Think It Over" hints at the sound and direction they should have headed... great workout for Bobby and had a rocking feel that makes it the highlight of the album for me, but too much of the rest was smothered in the dreaded synths and keyboards, some too slow tempos... and so on not to mention a farcical choice for the single. I think had it been a Clarke solo project, it would have rocked much more. The Hollies' story has quite a few "what if..." moments and the Buddy Holly fiasco is a potent one as it helped lead to the loss of Terry and Bernie and shattered the whole Hollies unity as - with respect to the various guys who came after Stiles, Coates etc - it felt more like Allan, Tony, Bobby and sidemen throughout the 80's and 90's and given Allan's desire to record a new album in the late 80's which didn't happen and not being forceful or a leader, it says a lot about where Tony and Bobby's interests lie where Hollies music and styles are concerned.
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Post by Mevrouw Bee on Sept 20, 2020 18:13:59 GMT
So, much as we would will it to happen, I just think it won't happen.😉 I think we're damned lucky to have what we have right now. Did anyone predict this much Clarkey 10 years ago? When I first became a Hollies geek in 2003, it was so much different...
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Post by baz on Sept 20, 2020 18:31:59 GMT
So, much as we would will it to happen, I just think it won't happen.😉 I think we're damned lucky to have what we have right now. Did anyone predict this much Clarkey 10 years ago? When I first became a Hollies geek in 2003, it was so much different... Blimey... by 2003 Clarkey was fully retired, never to be seen or heard about again. His induction into the HOF was a welcome quickie cameo and his guest appearance the foillowing year with Nash and Crosby felt like a quick encore then back to retirement. When I heard he was returning with a new album last year, it was definitely the surprise of the year... perhaps even the decade and it's been good to see and hear a lot of him again since then.
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Post by thejanitor on Sept 20, 2020 19:18:53 GMT
I love the Q&A idea, would definitely attract a few more fans to the site! I think it could be made possible, but at the same time, part of me also feels unfortunately Allan might decline on it. The only other page that comes to mind is the official forum, but since that is tied to the current group and (no offense) infamously inactive most of the time, I don't think he has any involvement or contacts over there, but I could be wrong. Maybe we could work together with those guys and get a separate one for both forums...
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Post by gee on Sept 21, 2020 11:47:29 GMT
Re Sylvester and Calvert - apparently it was Shadows guitarist Bruce Welch who dumped Bernie off the 'I Don't Understand You' session and urged Tony to 'ditch your bass player - Bernie has stated that
Tony refused to axe his old 'Dolphin Days' longtime friend and it was Bernie himself upon learning of Terry's departure who then handed in his resignation from the band so they could make a complete fresh start with one band regrouping as they did bringing in Steve Stroud on bass and Alan Coates on guitar/vocals
in that Radio show 'They Ain't Heavy Their The Hollies' Bernie spoke of him being in a bad place at the time with a failing marriage and him blaming that wrongly on music his being away alot etc...he also felt he was by then 'getting a bit long in the tooth' for the pop music thing and Terry's exit gave him the perfect opportunity to leave the band (much as the 'Dylan' album project had for Nash in late 1968)
so I don't think the two departures that came suddenly in 1981 were pre-planned at all or done to save cash re trimming the wage bill
It seems what most upset Terry was the announcement that Clarkey had told them he wanted them to stop touring - if so a 'crazy steal' of a suggestion indeed as that was by then their chief income and of course they toured evermore in the 80's doing so pretty soon after Terry and Bernie left the band so that idea which maybe Allan had (possibly for non musical reasons) at that time proved a complete non starter as their band history shows
Terry and Bernie quit in May 1981 - I saw one of the final concerts in May at Portsmouth on the wednesday night when Spurs beat Man City 3-2 in the FA Cup Final replay ! and you would have thought NOTHING was wrong at all...they were all great pals onstage...
a cheerful looking Terry joked as he walked offstage at the end re the cup final replay;
'it's 45 each and their still taking penalties...!'
after the split in the band was straight in the recording studio on 6 June cutting 'Carrie' with John Miles guesting and Shadows bass player Alan Jones helping out plus the instrumental 'Driver'
so no way did they grind to a halt as a recording band
they returned to Shadows drummer Brian Bennett's home studio on 18 June for a final third stab at 'I Don't Understand You'
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Post by The Dude on Sept 21, 2020 17:16:46 GMT
There is a rare version of the LP (detailed in the issue of Record Collector with the list of the Hollies' vinyl rarities) where the image used for the now rare paper insert was used for the cover instead. Looks far better. Can't remember which country it was released in though. My parents bought me "Confessions..." for my 14th birthday in 1970. It was the Dutch release, with Gasoline Alley Bred as extra track, closing side 2. GAB was mentioned on the record label but not on the well-known black cover, because that was printed in England. And there was no insert whatsoever...
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Post by The Dude on Sept 21, 2020 17:22:26 GMT
In a way Allan only had himself to blame - he was a co-founder of the band with Nash and Haydock but it appears that he never really got involved with actually 'leading' their band... He was very happy to be lead vocalist, a chief co-songwriter etc but it was essentially Nash-Hicks and later Hicks (increasingly in association with Elliott) who drove and guided the band from within it's ranks and up to 1971 Allan seemed mostly content with that set up - it was probably seeing the vast success of Nash stateside plus his then from 1969-70 being taken far more seriously by the music press as a part of CSN / CSNY plus solo artist....while despite the fine music he was making in The Hollies Allan found himself in lacey shirt and light trousers uniform and being seen (wrongly) as a 'mere pop star' by the music press which clearly made his personal frustration grow but he'd allowed that situation to develop by never taking a proper active leading role for the group he had co-founded by his own admission Allan had followed Graham's ideas ('Lullaby To Tim' being a prime example) then Tony's ('Dylan') but even tho' he was providing the band with great songs and taking younger Terry Sylvester 'under his wing' as a songwriter...still Allan for such a vital key band figure and trademark lead voice had an incredibly low profile as a group spokesman or musical direction influence even as late as 1971 so his feeling the need to 'do his own album' can be understood but as I said he was really at least partly responsible for his own situation The situation re Clarkey 'leading his band' never altered much later as by then Tony was firmly established as the chief Hollie 'calling the shots' (having found so many big hits plus co-written original hits for the band) and his having done all the hard work of taking the responsibility for so long (much as back in the sixties co-leader Nash had undertaken virtually all the group's main and key 'PR' work with the blessings of the rest of the band) this tells us why Clarkey had apparently so little say re Terry's departure - plus the fact he himself seems to have been at least a part of the 'issue' between Terry and the band which made Tony need to act like a football referee re first the yellow card...and ultimately having to produce the RED card - despite how Bobby put it re 'the trap was sprung' etc I don't think Tony wanted to boot Terry out at that point and lose his key high harmony voice but NO WAY would he then allow Allan to go from the band again...thus if it was a case of choosing one or the other... ....so Terry probably talked his way out of the band (can you believe that ??) Had Clarkey only had more of the drive and self confidence of Nash, and the focused determined attitude of Hicks re The Hollies he would have been in a far higher position within the band's structure over the sixties and in a more powerful position re influencing their musical direction which by 1978 was really a big frustration for him Ironic but when they finally followed Clarkey's idea re an album project - 'Buddy Holly' - it proved a commercial disaster and probably to a great extent the 'final straw' re Polydor's interest in them plus Terry and Bernie's time with the band despite it actually being the Bruce Welch sessions that actually ended it did Allan really envisage them doing the 'Buddy Holly' songs in that keyboard over dominated style ? - Pete Wingfield and Tony probably called the shots when they actually got down to arranging and recording the album...which headed quickly into the deletion bins in Woollies for 50 UK pence ! Good points. Nevertheless I like the Buddy Holly album...
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Post by sandy on Sept 21, 2020 18:05:39 GMT
Re Sylvester and Calvert - apparently it was Shadows guitarist Bruce Welch who dumped Bernie off the 'I Don't Understand You' session and urged Tony to 'ditch your bass player - Bernie has stated that Tony refused to axe his old 'Dolphin Days' longtime friend and it was Bernie himself upon learning of Terry's departure who then handed in his resignation from the band so they could make a complete fresh start with one band regrouping as they did bringing in Steve Stroud on bass and Alan Coates on guitar/vocals in that Radio show 'They Ain't Heavy Their The Hollies' Bernie spoke of him being in a bad place at the time with a failing marriage and him blaming that wrongly on music his being away alot etc...he also felt he was by then 'getting a bit long in the tooth' for the pop music thing and Terry's exit gave him the perfect opportunity to leave the band (much as the 'Dylan' album project had for Nash in late 1968) so I don't think the two departures that came suddenly in 1981 were pre-planned at all or done to save cash re trimming the wage bill It seems what most upset Terry was the announcement that Clarkey had told them he wanted them to stop touring - if so a 'crazy steal' of a suggestion indeed as that was by then their chief income and of course they toured evermore in the 80's doing so pretty soon after Terry and Bernie left the band so that idea which maybe Allan had (possibly for non musical reasons) at that time proved a complete non starter as their band history shows Terry and Bernie quit in May 1981 - I saw one of the final concerts in May at Portsmouth on the wednesday night when Spurs beat Man City 3-2 in the FA Cup Final replay ! and you would have thought NOTHING was wrong at all...they were all great pals onstage... a cheerful looking Terry joked as he walked offstage at the end re the cup final replay; 'it's 45 each and their still taking penalties...!' after the split in the band was straight in the recording studio on 6 June cutting 'Carrie' with John Miles guesting and Shadows bass player Alan Jones helping out plus the instrumental 'Driver' so no way did they grind to a halt as a recording band they returned to Shadows drummer Brian Bennett's home studio on 18 June for a final third stab at 'I Don't Understand You' I saw the last ever concert with that line up in Oxford, and,as you say, they all seemed in fine fettle...got their autographs afterwards,and all seemed happy to chat..😊It was a great concert....I don't know if I would have liked to have known it was the end of a wonderful era or not, looking back now....🤔It might have been too sad a moment....😑
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Post by faitrader on Jan 22, 2022 22:38:58 GMT
I was in it! It was great fun. I remember a TV crashing to the floor in the auditorium during rehearsals.
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Post by faitrader on Jan 22, 2022 22:42:46 GMT
I was in it!
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Post by faitrader on Jan 23, 2022 0:54:50 GMT
I played the stage husband of the main typical housewife character. It was a sort of Alf Garnet character with a main monologue about the ‘Birman cheating’. My character was blown up at the end of the first half when my stage wife failed to answer a quiz question correctly. Mike Lucas who was the director of the Gulbenkian Theatre played a main role and directed with help from Danny Schiller who was Little Norm in the Beiderbecke TV series. The quiz sequence was broadcast by Southern ITV to preview the show. It was also reviewed in the Sunday Times, although I do not have a copy of the review. The show was ahead of its time in using the great recorded soundtrack alongside VT, projected images, lighting & sound effects. The technical rehearsal lasted into the early hours. It was all done manually as no computer aids were available.
The students from the women’s PE college formed the chorus line and their costumes were made from bra and briefs with mirrored plastic squares stapled on. My costume was all grey. My stage wife was supposed to wear stockings and frilly knickers but managed to get this changed to black tights and a frilly petticoat
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Post by faitrader on Jan 23, 2022 1:08:25 GMT
I remember that we partied long and hard after the last night to the music of the soundtrack to Oh Flux! Today the cd could be released ahead of a stage show with some sort of video to go with it. No one had done anything quite like this before. The theme of media becoming the religion - that’s what I thought at the time - is even more relevant today. The music was great. Does a copy of the music sound track still exist? Could it be recreated?
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Post by Malc on Jan 23, 2022 7:13:56 GMT
Allan has stated in conversation somewhere that he still has a copy of the music in some form...
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Post by Mevrouw Bee on Jan 23, 2022 14:45:50 GMT
I played the stage husband of the main typical housewife character. It was a sort of Alf Garnet character with a main monologue about the ‘Birman cheating’. My character was blown up at the end of the first half when my stage wife failed to answer a quiz question correctly. Mike Lucas who was the director of the Gulbenkian Theatre played a main role and directed with help from Danny Schiller who was Little Norm in the Beiderbecke TV series. The quiz sequence was broadcast by Southern ITV to preview the show. It was also reviewed in the Sunday Times, although I do not have a copy of the review. The show was ahead of its time in using the great recorded soundtrack alongside VT, projected images, lighting & sound effects. The technical rehearsal lasted into the early hours. It was all done manually as no computer aids were available. The students from the women’s PE college formed the chorus line and their costumes were made from bra and briefs with mirrored plastic squares stapled on. My costume was all grey. My stage wife was supposed to wear stockings and frilly knickers but managed to get this changed to black tights and a frilly petticoat But Nash will always be considered the "experimenter" and the rest of them stodgy and old-fashioned. This is brilliant! Thank you for sharing!!
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Post by sandy on Jan 23, 2022 19:33:13 GMT
Allan has stated in conversation somewhere that he still has a copy of the music in some form...Okay, so we just need to crowdfund to stage it properly, as it seems pertinent to the subject of media and manipulation right now!!!!
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Post by ahkyahnan on Jan 24, 2022 0:43:47 GMT
I remember that we partied long and hard after the last night to the music of the soundtrack to Oh Flux! Today the cd could be released ahead of a stage show with some sort of video to go with it. No one had done anything quite like this before. The theme of media becoming the religion - that’s what I thought at the time - is even more relevant today. The music was great. Does a copy of the music sound track still exist? Could it be recreated? Thanks for sharing these stories! These are awesome to read after all these years. Mark
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Post by cameron on May 19, 2022 20:18:46 GMT
I was pointed towards the BMI music library today, with a little lesson on how to use it from an ABBA fan, who's whipped the ABBA fan community into a frenzy today by spotting that the unreleased ABBA track 'Just Like That' (something fans are OBSESSED with to the point that I hope it's released just to shut them up!) has a newly registered copyright number that's higher than the recently released tracks on their 'Voyage' album, possibly pointing towards imminent release. Sadly, the catalogue is in alphabetical order, so it takes a bit of detective work to figure out when these works were registered, using the BMI registry number.
Anyway, searching for some Hollies tracks, the list of Clarke/Bowstead or Clarke/Bowstead/Sylvester tracks differs ever so slightly from the list further up in this thread:
1. Chicken Out and the Channel (Clarke/Bowstead) 205205 2. Crucial Inquisition (Clarke/Bowstead/Sylvester) 260193 3. He Threw A Diminished Seventh (Clarke/Bowstead/Sylvester) 542176 4. Life Is Next To Something Else (Clarke/Bowstead) 867638 5. Love Makes The World Go Around* (Clarke/Bowstead/Sylvester) 921666 6. There's No Business Like It (Clarke/Bowstead/Sylvester) 1490412 7. Thing of Beauty** (Clarke/Bowstead) 1495455 / 1495458 8. Welcome to Our Show (Clarke/Bowstead/Sylvester) 1625507
*Note, this track is registered twice, once under Clarke/Bowstead/Sylvester and once under Clarke/Sylvester. Maybe it could be a different song? Or a re-working of the song featured in the musical. Or it could be that John Bowstead doesn't have a number on the BMI database, so perhaps isn't a registered songwriter?
** This one again is registered twice, but once as Clarke/Bowstead and once as Clarke/Bowstead/Sylvester. Interestingly, none of the 'Oh Flux' tracks have an assigned publisher, with the exception of this one, which the Clarke/Bowstead entry is registered to Alto Music. Perhaps the Hollies recorded it and it remains unreleased?
The other thing that could just be an admin thing, but the BMI registry numbers (shown above after each track) are absolutely all over the place. Usually works released at the same time have a similar number. Just a quick example is 'Gloria Swansong' (478489) and 'Goodbye Tomorrow' (498925), both recorded and released in 1969 and they have fairly close numbers. Other related tracks follow the same pattern, with the exception of 'Butterfly' era stuff, which as we know had the credits changed later on [though as a side note, 'Elevated Observations' lists Tony Priest as a co-composer along with Clarke/Hicks/Nash], which could explain that anomaly. I wonder why the 'Oh Flux' stuff is so sporadically registered with BMI?
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Post by Malc on May 20, 2022 6:18:51 GMT
Anyway, searching for some Hollies tracks, the list of Clarke/Bowstead or Clarke/Bowstead/Sylvester tracks differs ever so slightly from the list further up in this thread: 1. Chicken Out and the Channel (Clarke/Bowstead) 205205 2. Crucial Inquisition (Clarke/Bowstead/Sylvester) 260193 3. He Threw A Diminished Seventh (Clarke/Bowstead/Sylvester) 542176 4. Life Is Next To Something Else (Clarke/Bowstead) 867638 5. Love Makes The World Go Around* (Clarke/Bowstead/Sylvester) 921666 6. There's No Business Like It (Clarke/Bowstead/Sylvester) 1490412 7. Thing of Beauty** (Clarke/Bowstead) 1495455 / 1495458 8. Welcome to Our Show (Clarke/Bowstead/Sylvester) 1625507 As listed in my book... I've always found the BMI listings as a great source of info (along with ASCAP) but, yes, I agree, that site is very frustrating to work around...
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