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Post by greengoddess on Aug 26, 2017 10:55:28 GMT
One Hollies composition I love is Wings. I know it would not have been commerical enough to be released as a single but it was a great song.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2017 12:01:43 GMT
Yes totally agree with you about Wings, also King Midas deserved to be a massive hit.
Real quality songwriting.
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Post by eric on Aug 26, 2017 12:46:42 GMT
“What’s Wrong With The Way I Live”, a self-composed “protest” song from 1966 and the opening track on the “For Certain Because” LP, was a Top Ten hit for The Twilights in Australia. This song should have been an international hit for The Hollies, it is that good. (The Twilights recorded their version at Abbey Road studios.)
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Post by eric on Aug 26, 2017 12:53:44 GMT
"King Midas In Reverse" was a huge hit in Adelaide, Australia. It reached number 3 on the charts and stayed in the Top Ten for 3 weeks, bowing out of the charts after a 12 week run.
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Post by christocello on Aug 26, 2017 20:25:23 GMT
Good points, Gee, with some of them I totally agree. "Don't run and hide" is fascinating as "Wings" is, "Baby that's all" (by "Chester Mann", another "Ransford"-credit) comes near the quality of the Beatles B-Side "This boy" and "You know he did" is certainly not without any charms. But when I listened today to a "Top of the pops" BBC-Disc from 1966 it was the same thing again: "That's how strong my love is" and "I take what I want" really impressed me but "I've been wrong before" seemed ambitious but pale to me . And when I think of the three albums from 1966/1967 it's really difficult to remember a tune, with the possible exception of "Stop stop stop" and "Have you ever loved somebody". The melodies just don't enter my memory - but I can recall nearly every Beatles' tune (even "Blue Jay way" :-) And I also don't get the genius of "King Midas", whom Graham seemed to be so proud of. Ok, it's got an interesting structure, different from the typical 3 minute songs of that time, but it seems to me being slightly overproduced with Johnny Scott's added orchestra. The Beach Boys' "Good vibrations" for instance offered much more musical content still one year earlier not to speak of "Strawberry fields" or "Penny Lane". Also I can't see "All the world is love" as being in the same league as "All you need is love" with it's perfect balance of "singalong" qualities and metric intricacies.
The only thing I wanted to put into question is the Hollies elevation into "genius composers". I still would rate Leiber/Stoller, Jagger/ Richards, Wilson/Love, Goffin/King and Lennon/McCartney higher than Clarke/Hicks/Nash without discrediting the latter. Nonetheless the Hollies' output is totally worth listening and enjoying (and that's what I've been doing for decades now).
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Post by eric on Aug 26, 2017 22:20:23 GMT
From the artists that emerged in 1963/1964 and those that were a part of the “British Invasion”, the ones that enjoyed success throughout the remainder of the Sixties and into the Seventies, were those who possessed and developed strong song writing capabilities. And there were very few in this category. The acts that succeeded were The Beach Boys, The Beatles, The Hollies, The Kinks (Ray Davies) and The Rolling Stones. Eric Burdon became a serious songwriter in 1967. The Dave Clark Five had many self-composed hits but their career tapered off around the end of 1966/1967.
Clarke/Hicks/Nash may not have possessed the genius of Lennon and McCartney (and who does?); Brian Wilson and Jagger/Richards, but they were very fine songwriters. There is no shame in coming second to this group of composers.
In my local market of Adelaide, Australia, from October 1966 to September 1968, The Hollies had 6 self-composed CHN Top 10 hits, being “Stop Stop Stop”, “On A Carousel”, “Carrie Anne”, “King Midas In Reverse”, “Dear Eloise” and “Do The Best You Can”. “Jennifer Eccles” peaked at number 12. That is, 7 Top 20 hits in all.
As I mentioned previously, an Aussie band The Twilights had a Top 10 hit with a CHN song “What’s Wrong With The Way I Live” (in March 1967).
Therefore, CHN compositions achieved 7 Top Ten Hits (and 8 Top 20 hits) in a 2 year period. A remarkable achievement indeed.
As we know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and what appeals to one may not appeal to another. However, what is obvious with the extent of this chart success is that many people found enough joy (read: melody, lyrics, singing, musicianship) in these songs/recordings to want to buy them.
People are still paying good money to hear these tunes performed by The Hollies in 2017, thus demonstrating their lasting appeal and the excellent composing qualities of Clarke/Hicks/Nash.
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Post by eric on Aug 26, 2017 23:05:33 GMT
Also, but albeit on a less successful note, American singer Keith had a Top 40 hit with the CHN song “Tell Me To My Face” in the USA and Adelaide, Australia in April 1967 (numbers 37 and 33 respectively) and in the UK in March 1967 (number 50).
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Post by cameron on Aug 27, 2017 8:14:43 GMT
And when I think of the three albums from 1966/1967 it's really difficult to remember a tune, with the possible exception of "Stop stop stop" and "Have you ever loved somebody". The melodies just don't enter my memory - but I can recall nearly every Beatles' tune (even "Blue Jay way" :-) And I also don't get the genius of "King Midas", whom Graham seemed to be so proud of. I'm sorry, but I've never heard so much rubbish in all my life! I'm surprised to hear Keith Richards/Mick Jagger rated ABOVE Clarke/Hicks/Nash. With the exception of a small handful of tracks, most of their LP output from the same era (Aftermath, Between The Buttons and Their Satanic Majesties Request) are full of forgettable songs! The Stones themselves wanted to forget all about 'Between The Buttons' even straight after it was released! I wake up every morning with "Carrie Anne" haunting my brain! It's one of THE catchiest melodies ever! As for the LP output, some of the songs were so catchy that they became singles elsewhere in the world due to excessive radio play - "What's Wrong With The Way I Live", "Pay You Back With Interest", "Have You Ever Loved Somebody", "When Your Light's Turned On", "You Need Love", "Dear Eloise", "Step Inside"... if there's one thing that the Hollies were good at, it's a catchy pop song. As for King Midas, while the Beatles were off on a Magical Mystery Tour, Graham penned this incredible reflective song about how everything in his life was turning to turmoil. I'm sure it was more a reflection on his marriage at the time than wanting to leave the Hollies as he was still very much the group leader by August 1967. the lyrics were too mature for it to be successful, and the chord changes in the chorus are quite quirky and difficult to sing along to. And whereas the Beatles were filling Sgt. Pepper with songs about meter maids, circus leaders, paintings and old age, the Hollies were tackling relationships in a new more mature way on "Evolution". "Stop Right There" is Graham's brutal plea to his wife ('long ago, everything about you was for me to hold, now my thoughts about you won't stay cold'). "Heading For A Fall" is Allan's slightly mischievous song about falling for another woman. "When Your Light's Turned On" charts the story of a guy meeting up with a girl from the point of view of having an affair ('I'll be happy to wait up until he goes, I'll be happy to wait up until I know. That the coast's clear, it's all right, so I call back when your light's turned on'). And not forgetting "The Games We Play" - a not so veiled song about a young couple having sex under the noses of the girl's parents. The Hollies have a long history of tackling mature songwriting content as far back as 1965 with "Too Many People" about how natural disasters and diseases are here to keep the Earth's population under control - even the Beatles were still more or less in love song mode in 1965! In 1966 Allan was writing about social classes in dating with "High Classed". Nash was confronting his wife again in "Tell Me To My Face". Then in the later 60s, Allan especially would write songs about National Service and possibly a response to the Vietnam War with "Soldier's Song" ('please answer my question - why do I have to go to war? I don't believe in the government's greed, I find the whole thing a bore') and later "Frightened Lady" and "Promised Land". And even later on with Terry Sylvester, who can ignore "I'm Down", the gorgeous ballad from the point of view of a guy who finds out that he's been adopted. It's so unusual and deserved to be a bigger hit than it was. Because they were wrapped up in a neat pop orientated package, people overlook the lyrical content of Hollies songs. And as for a measure of chart success as to whether something 'made the grade' or not - none of the Kinks' albums after "Something Else" charted in the 1960s, with "Village Green Preservation Society" being deleted by Pye just TWO MONTHS after it was issued! Now they're undeniably cult classics, but at the time a total bomb chart wise.
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Post by christocello on Aug 27, 2017 10:01:23 GMT
Thanks eric for leading the discussion in a more objective way ;-) Referring to Jagger/Richards those "Glimmer Twins" matured from 1965 to around 1970/1971 amazingly. And if I even do not get the genius in their "Exile on main street" (which I personally find mostly boring) the development from "Aftermath" to "Beggar's Banquet" and "Let it bleed" seems amazing to me. That the Stones didn't seem to be proud of the eclectic but impressive "Between the buttons" finds its equivalent in Hicks/Elliotts neglecting their own 1967 output. Cameron, I think you were referring to "Soldier's dilemma" although "Soldier's Song" from 1980 (Mike Batt gets the credits) is an impressive song as well? It's true that some of the Hollies lyrics go deeper than they appear to be at the first listening - and I'm smiling that the "rubbish" I wrote animated you to make that clear. But to sell pop music means to put more emphasis on the catchy tunes, especially when you look for a worldwide market where people even don't understand the meaning of the lyrics. Lots of the Beatles' songs are full of wordplay, sometimes even silly or (drug-induced) meaningless but the arrangement and tunes themselves catch the listener's mind immediately. Finally I would conclude agreeing with Gees points: it was probably their lack of self esteem (plus the lack of [album] chart success and the lack of unity among the songwriters?) that led Hollies Ltd. to prefer songs from other composers. They were fine songwriters, indeed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2017 10:26:31 GMT
That the Stones didn't seem to be proud of the eclectic but impressive "Between the buttons" finds its equivalent in Hicks/Elliotts neglecting their own 1967 output. Absolutely. I regard 'Between the Buttons', 'Evolution' and 'Revolver' as 3 of the finest albums ever made (though that whole "post Beat/pre Psych" era from late 1965 to early 1967 was a fabulous time for music). The RS had 2 things that most of their rivals didn't have though:
(1) No "nursery rhymes" (Yellow Submarine / Lullaby For Tim / All Together Now / Pegasus...). Even at their most whimsical (Dandelion, In Another Land, Sing This All Together), their songs always had a darker edge to them.
(2) Brian Jones! Geniuses that Harrison & Hicks were / are, none could pick up virtually any instrument and then quickly get something out of it like Brian did. On BTB he played (deep breath!) organ, recorder, electric guitar, marimba, piano, banjo, kazoo, harmonica, trombone, saxophone and clarinet, and of course he also played sitar very memorably on 'Paint It Black' shortly before this album.
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Post by gee on Aug 27, 2017 10:42:24 GMT
1) I don't rate 'On With The Show' very highly as a song tho' , and 'Sing This All Together (See What Happens)' is unlikely to make most people's top twenty classic Stones tracks as frankly it's nothing much beyond just random jamming noises !
2) while' neither Beatles or Hollies had the sinister 'power play' going on behind the scenes that The Stones had as Brian Jones was 'edged out' of the group despite his obvious talents - while at least Harrison and Hicks made songwriting and lead vocal contributions to their respective groups
Brian Jones was marginalised and quietly 'removed' from The Stones in effect forcing him to quit the band - and we all know what happened immediately after he did..
people can enthuse as much as they like about Brian Jones but in truth it was and still is Mick Jagger more than anyone who makes The Rolling Stones isn't it ?
they survived Jones departure and carried on successfully ('Honky Tonk Women' made no.1, 'Brown Sugar', 'Tumblin' Dice', 'Angie', 'It's Only Rock & Roll', 'Fool To Cry', 'Start Me Up' etc plus albums; 'Let it Bleed', 'Sticky Fingers', 'Exile On Main Street' etc) , and also later both Mick Taylor and Bill Wyman's exits too - obviously Keith Richards is crucial to them but in the end it's Mick Jagger's voice and his onstage / onscreen persona more than anything that makes The Stones - if you take his voice away there's NO Rolling Stones
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2017 11:53:40 GMT
people can enthuse as much as they like about Brian Jones but in truth it was and still is Mick Jagger more than anyone who makes The Rolling Stones isn't it ? they survived Jones departure and carried on successfully ('Honky Tonk Women' made no.1, 'Brown Sugar', 'Tumblin' Dice', 'Angie', 'It's Only Rock & Roll', 'Fool To Cry', 'Start Me Up' etc plus albums; 'Let it Bleed', 'Sticky Fingers', 'Exile On Main Street' etc) , and also later both Mick Taylor and Bill Wyman's exits too - obviously Keith Richards is crucial to them but in the end it's Mick Jagger's voice and his onstage / onscreen persona more than anything that makes The Stones - if you take his voice away there's NO Rolling Stones Of course. Same as with The Hollies and Allan Clarke...
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Post by greengoddess on Aug 27, 2017 13:13:34 GMT
I must have been going around with my eyes shut in 1969. I never knew that Brian Jones was edged out of The Stones.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2017 19:31:23 GMT
The Rolling Stones was Brian Jones band, he was the original member, the others Mick,Keith,Bill and Charlie were recruited by him.
Had he survived, i do wonder if the remaining members would have looked out for him, as Floyd did for Syd Barrett.
Somehow, i doubt it...
PS: Sorry to add to the thread drift.
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Post by gee on Aug 28, 2017 9:52:04 GMT
There's no doubting Allan Clarke was THE voice in The Hollies - LCW proves that, he could handle numbers alone without any problem
However The Hollies HAVE of course made musically successful if not critically lauded albums without him (albums very highly rated by some on this forum especially), and 'The Baby' was a UK Top Thirty hit minus Clarke
No Stones albums minus Mick Jagger tho' and the very idea of it seems impossible - vocally despite the odd number sung by Keith or Bill they rely so much on Mick Jagger as they are not a vocal harmony group at all
Brian Jones went from group founder, key multi instrumentalist (two harmonicas on 'Not Fade Away', lead guitar on 'Little Red Rooster', vibes on 'Under My Thumb', Dulcimer sitar on 'Paint it Black', mellotron on '2000 Light Years From Home' etc), and group spokesman handling most interviews in a surprisingly intelligent articulate style - he was quite 'middle class' very well spoken and musically most astute - being a joy for interviewers unlike the acidic often bored and downright rude John Lennon !
....but over time Jagger-Richards assumed creative control with Andrew Loog Oldham's approval, Brian's beloved blues were more and more marginalised and so was he...Keith Richards even took Brian's girlfriend Anita Pallenberg off him too !
...sadly by 'Beggar's Banquet' in 1968 Brian was only making minimal contributions on a few tracks - a great SHAME as he clearly brought so much to their music and finally Jagger and Richards told him he was out of HIS band that he'd put together - he died shortly after
Brian had sadly gone downhill, the inquest revealed he was physically in a very poor shape, he'd begun phoning people up (Paul McCartney was one) and pouring out his 'issues' in long rambling rants ....gradually folk started to distance themselves from him isolating him more
Brian apparently wanted to form a group to play Creedence style music late on...whether that would have happened we can only wonder
Post Brian Jones it was notable how The Rolling Stones music narrowed to electric Rock and some county and acoustic style (plus a brief controversial dabble in disco too !) but minus much of the unusual instrumentation and more ambitious scope they had when their founder was with them
- not all but much of The Stones 'classic' singles and albums and certainly their reputation were made with Brian Jones in the group
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Post by Stranger on Sept 6, 2017 20:26:34 GMT
So did Roger Greenaway make any contribution or did he just automatically share all credits with Cook?
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Post by stuball on Sept 7, 2017 15:23:36 GMT
No, Roger Greenaway made no contribution to 'Long Cool Woman': 100% Cook & Clarke.
But the two Rogers writing partnership continued on as Cook-Greenaway, with both receiving joint credit and royalties, whether or not they composed singly or in collaboration with one another.
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Post by moorlock2003 on Oct 7, 2017 19:55:47 GMT
At first glance Terry's comment about being the face of LCW is a strange one, but if you think about on the US tour he was. Has Allan Clarke ever performed his song in the USA? yes on their 1983 Tour with graham Nash Epic records brought the band over for shows in NewYork and Los Angeles. I was there for the LA show. By 1975 Clarke had the frizzy perm look. Basically the band did their cabaret act. Terry is right when he says he was the face of LCW, as the band did the two network late night TV shows, ABC In Concert and The Midnight Special (NBC) in early '73. Terry is also correct when he said "For all intents and purposes, I'm the lead singer of LCW".
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Post by moorlock2003 on Oct 7, 2017 20:02:04 GMT
“What’s Wrong With The Way I Live”, a self-composed “protest” song from 1966 and the opening track on the “For Certain Because” LP, was a Top Ten hit for The Twilights in Australia. This song should have been an international hit for The Hollies, it is that good. (The Twilights recorded their version at Abbey Road studios.) Superb song about non-conformity, living your life according to your own rules. Love it, one of their very best that gets overlooked.
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