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Post by stuball on Oct 24, 2016 15:03:47 GMT
Interesting tweet from Terry Sylvester:
'all this talk about me being an employee is a load of rubbish, I own 20% of all royalties'
i wonder, after all the past postulating that essentially the '69-'81 Hollies were basically 3 bosses and 2 employees, whether this subject needs to be revisited.
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Post by gee on Oct 24, 2016 18:46:28 GMT
Terry would say that now.....but consider this;
Terry would only 'own' 20% of the songs royalties he was involved in writing / recording over the 1969-81 period - thanks to the deal Robin Britten worked...(hence Terry's salute to 'Robbo' at the R 'n' R Hall of Fame Induction show in 2010)
Britten was later ousted, by Hicks, Elliott, and Clarke (Robin was unwell, but they wanted him out anyway, one of the 'issues' Terry had with The Hollies as Britten was Terry's manager too)
- Terry of course won't get anything from the earlier Nash era or later 'post Sylvester' Hollies recordings while he was not an equal partner of 'The Hollies Limited' (nor was Bernie Calvert - hired for 'Bus Stop' recording in May 1966 then he went back to his old job before being 're-hired' later in 1966 - when he was told by then Hollies manager Michael Cohen he was; 'on the payroll as of now and to report in September for a Scandinavian tour...' - Bernie's own words)
and certainly Terry was not involved in 'Gralto Music Limited' as the very title states
'The Hollies group was run very much along factory lines - if unwell you had to have a valid 'sicknote' etc - as founder member Eric Haydock discovered by 1966 and he was bluntly 'dismissed' from the band when he began failing to turn up for shows etc, plus accounts of him being seen out when off sick began circulating...no one, not even a founder member was above the group ! (tho' they did give Eric one last paid job of doing a 'Top of The Pops' BBC TV show with them to promote 'Bus Stop' that Bernie Calvert had played bass guitar on)
Tony, Allan, and Bobby had been members of the established top chart recording band 'The Hollies' for nearly six years over 1963-68 when Terry came in, no way could he be on the same level either in the band or in their business... Terry now says he was 'asked to join' but in truth he was 'hired' out of a number of aspiring hopefuls by The Hollies in 1969 and, as I've been told, he was basically given the choice to either 'shut up...or you know where the door is' in 1981 (he walked)
I would think it's pretty obvious Hicks, Elliott and Clarke in that order were 'The Hollies Limited' from 1973 onwards
Tony and Bobby gave Clarke the ultimatum that saw Allan depart in December 1971....
and it was Tony Hicks who 'hired' Mike Rickfors in late 1971...and Tony who turned down Clarke's offer to do that USA tour in 1973 (an error Tony later admitted)
....then after Tony had met up with Allan Clarke to discuss Clarke's return it was Tony who then asked Mike to leave the band in summer 1973
'Sing Dylan' was Tony Hicks idea in 1969, 'Buddy Holly' was Allan Clarke's idea in 1980
Where's Terry Sylvester in all of these decisions...?
Note how Terry Sylvester's lead vocal spots on his own songs on seventies Hollies albums and singles 'b' sides vanished after 'Pick Up The Pieces Again' and 'No More Riders' in 1974 (his two lead vocals on '5317704' in 1979 were purely to save studio time - and costs - while 'Harlequin' had already been cut featuring Gary Brooker on lead vocal, hence that end vocal by Brooker on the fadeout left on)
- these points pretty much say it all re who were the 'senior' Hollies
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Post by dirtyfaz on Oct 25, 2016 7:44:16 GMT
Many valid points there Gee.
The reality is that none of us know the setup/structure of Hollies Ltd with any certainty. We can all guess/presume or make assumptions but that is all it is, an educated guess etc.
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Post by gee on Oct 25, 2016 13:53:32 GMT
very true - no group kept their secrets and any 'dirty washing' out of public view more effectively than the intentionally 'squeaky clean' imaged Hollies......
tho' we DO know that their sixties 'leader' and highest profile / most 'public Hollie' Graham Nash had to follow the band's lead back towards pop music in 1968 - 'Listen To Me'...and he even reluctantly sang; 'Blo-blo-blowin in The Wind' (to Nash's annoyance) after his ideas re psychedlia met with little chart success, and his suggestion re doing cabaret had mis-fired on them too...
Tony Hicks suggested - and The Hollies group agreed - to 'Sing Dylan' BEFORE Graham Nash exited the band on 8 December 1968 when the 'Dylan' backing tracks were already being recorded minus Nash...
.....and of course it gave Nash the perfect excuse to drop out in late 1968 BUT clearly Graham felt his position in the band re leadership (which he'd probably been a 'co-leader' with Hicks in truth) and musical direction was made untenable after 'King Midas...' and 'Butterfly' both flopped...
so if their original band leader, spokesman, most 'public Hollie' and driving force had to 'tow the line' in 1968 and sing their jokey 'La La Jennifer Eccles' and a Tony Hazzard pop song - that tells something re the band's internal set up - if Hicks, Elliott and Clarke opposed it (we know Clarke disliked 'Marrakesh Express' too) than it WAS NOT gonna happen
they had allowed Nash to take them into psychedlia in 1967...but as soon as success tailed off he was outvoted and he probably felt 'sidelined' making the freedom of CSN seem impossible to ignore...
so if even their chief figurehead Graham Nash wasn't above being outvoted and made to follow the group's lead...then 'new boy' newcomer, fledgling songwriter, and at the time mega eager and mega grateful to have made it at last at the tail end of the sixties young Terry Sylvester certainly would have known his place !
remember too it was Tony Hicks who found 'He Ain't Heavy' in 1969 at the song publisher and Hicks got The Hollies to record it even tho' it was a complete change of style for them - again this tells us who was really effectively running the band at that time...
Another factor in Terry Sylvester's later exit was he wanted them to be more adventurous and do their own songs more - but Clarke wanted the 'Buddy Holly' album and they kept playing the 'ballad card' on repeated unsuccessful singles at Polydor...
....and note they still did even after Terry & Bernie had both left ('Too Many Hearts Get Broken' / 'Reunion of The Heart' / 'Nothing Else But Love'/ 'Find Me A Family') which strongly suggests it was Hicks, Elliott and Clarke making the decisions...
it's notable that Terry's last recording with The Hollies, the aptly titled; 'I Don't Understand You (Anymore)' was only composed by just Clarke-Hicks...and Terry Sylvester had apparently been dropped from their songwriting team by Spring 1981...(the recording sessions where producer Bruce Welch of The Shadows replaced Bernie with Shads bassist Alan Jones and had bluntly told Tony to; 'ditch your bass player...' ! - Hicks refused)
remember Bernie Calvert has openly stated 'Wiggle That Wotsit' made him cringe...and later he thought 'If The Lights Go Out' (1980 version) was to be the next single...(instead they did 'Soldier's Song' without him)
- so clearly longtime friend and Ex-Dolphin Bernie, who had been in the band three years longer than Terry, was NOT making the senior decisions regarding their singles...and if Bernie with three years more Hollies service than Terry wasn't a 'senior Hollie' in their pecking order it hardly seems likely the younger Terry was - none of his ideas were being adopted hence by 1981 he'd had enough and understandably walked...just as Nash had back in 1968
Allan Clarke apparently 'snubbed' Terry at that Induction show in 2010...and grabbed the microphone back off him during the LCW performance....tho' Clarke warmly shook Bernie's hand and was clearly delighted to see Bernie once more
I'm inclined to think Terry now is trying to 'big up' his position in the seventies /early eighties Hollies a bit...
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Post by JamesT on Oct 26, 2016 19:42:28 GMT
Terry seems to be doing quite well these days judging by his Twitter feed. Does anyone have a complete set list from one of his full-length shows?
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Post by cameron on Oct 28, 2016 21:31:30 GMT
Terry can't have a very good manager for allowing Terry to have control over his own Twitter account! Lol. Some of the things he's said over the years have been awful, often hastily deleted. Celebrities should keep a distant stance on social media.
There was similar uproar recently when Graham Nash announced his divorce and new love Amy Grantham at the same time and Amy was commenting on Facebook arguing with Nash fans who said anything bad about his situation or her. Whether that was her right or not, as a famous person, you have to take a step back from all that.
I think with the RRHOF incident, or Hollie-gate as it's become known internationally as, Terry just showed up on stage unrehearsed and decided to join in seemingly without asking. Note how Eric Haydock and more surprisingly Bernie Calvert weren't involved too. Terry made a fool of himself that evening really, turning up in a football shirt and taking to the stage to tell jokes - he just lacked grace and decorum that befits a ceremony like that and that visibly seemed to annoy at least Graham and Allan. Though I did feel at the time like the whole thing was about Graham and Allan, and it was Bernie who I felt sorry for. He's not done anything wrong in the whole Hollie saga yet he always gets overlooked. Even in Wild Tales, Graham Nash's autobiography, he's only ever referred to as "our bass player". Bernie served longer as a Hollie than even Graham in the end, but he was only ever an "employee".
I think Bobby and Tony perhaps kept out of it on principal and used their Royal Albert Hall gig as an excuse, and I don't blame them, the RRHOF has become a bit of a joke really. I think it's a nice award for a band, a nice accolade, but it doesn't carry as much gravitas as it perhaps used to based on some of the bands that have been inducted over some of the ones that haven't yet.
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Post by gee on Oct 29, 2016 10:16:05 GMT
I quite agree - good to hear Chicago have finally got inducted, tho' The Moody Blues and a number of other notable groups are STILL incredibly 'snubbed'...!
Re The Hollies fiasco - I think Nash wanted a night for Allan Clarke to get his long overdue proper recognition in the USA, with Nash probably feeling a bit guilty re his 'distancing' himself from The Hollies back then when he left, and leaving Clarke behind etc
that's understandable BUT it was meant to be 'The Hollies' night, however when Hicks and Elliott effectively 'snubbed' it the thing became one of those American TV productions - hence Terry, Bernie and Eric were unfairly reduced to support cast status (not sat on the main table etc)
Bernie and Eric were accepting of it, probably just delighted to get SOME recognition from the USA crowd but of course for Terry it was particularly galling - and the LCW song performance clearly was the final straw for him - sadly tho' he just made himself look like a drunken gatecrasher (NOT saying he was but it certainly looked like it...!)
Had Tony and Bobby been there some kind of proper Hollies performance would have taken place probably with Bobby on drums Eric on bass, Bernie on piano, Graham and Terry on acoustics and Tony lead guitar...Clarke, Hicks, Nash, Sylvester singing the songs mostly in unison to cover Allan's voice with some additional musicians...maybe Ray Stiles, Ian Parker etc 'covering' them musically if anyone was a bit 'rusty' etc
sad it looked so bad and a few wounds were exacerbated rather than any 'healing' done re relationships - but I can't help feel the root of the problem was in Tony and Bobby's absence plus Nash wanting to honour his old school pal Allan... when it should have been about The Hollies band.
It was good that Nash mentioned Don Rathbone but Mike Rickfors sadly wasn't given any mention at all (probably as Allan is still 'touchy' about that period in the band's history)
re Terry's tweets - yeah social media is a 'double edged sword' and I have always wondered if the 'Anti Nash' and 'Anti Clarke' rants are done after a few beers...and quickly deleted in the more sober cold light of the following day....(??)
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Post by stuball on Oct 30, 2016 16:47:33 GMT
The RRHOF evening was a total fiasco and, six years on, it still turns my stomach to think about it. About the only Hollies who didn't come out of it with egg on their face, were Tony and Bobby, who stayed clear of the whole disaster. Whether that was down to double-booking, serendipity or common sense hardly matters. They made the right decision in giving it a wide berth.
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Post by moorlock2003 on Nov 27, 2016 0:57:43 GMT
Many valid points there Gee. The reality is that none of us know the setup/structure of Hollies Ltd with any certainty. We can all guess/presume or make assumptions but that is all it is, an educated guess etc. [b Haha, thank goodness Tony "made a mistake" regarding rehiring Clarke. It gave us the best lineup ever, with Rickfors!
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Post by gee on Nov 27, 2016 12:51:43 GMT
well that would be the line up that FAILED to break the band big in the USA (on a tour obtained via Clarke's song LCW being a big USA chart hit)...when they were riding on the back of two Clarke sung American chart hits, and whose second album was left unissued in USA and UK
and Tony Hicks later admitted he'd made an error in NOT accepting Clarke's offer to do that USA tour
then later Hicks asked Clarke back...and fired Rickfors (tho' I do think they should have retained Mike in the band as co-lead singer)
... look at all the records they sold with Mike compared to Allan Clarke - first UK official flop single, and no UK chart album plus a flop single in the USA and a very minor chart placed album (again probably on the strength of Clarke's song LCW charting)
as Terry Sylvester said; 'The Americans wanted Allan...'
hence Mike Rickfors brief stay in the group...
let's keep it real not just a fan's (or a handful of fans) own view...repeated over and over and over ...presumably thinking that if you say something again and again for long enough then people will begin to believe it !
However the chart statistics and music history books tell the REAL truth re The Hollies story....FACT !
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Post by stuball on Nov 27, 2016 17:53:47 GMT
We could argue all day which version of The Hollies sounded better, live or on record, but there's little doubt the public did not buy into the Rickfor's Holliies.
What I find more intriguing is why Hicks chose a vocalist in Rickfors, who sounded so diametrically the opposite of Clarke: more soulful than pop to be sure, and one that totally changed The Hollies sound. For the answer, I keep looking at The Hollies deteriorating chart positions on both sides of the Atlantic in the period following 'He Ain't Heavy'.
''Bottom From The Top' peaked at #7 in Britain, which wasn't bad, but its follow up, 'Gasoline Alley Bred' at #14, failed to make the Top Ten. Things got even worse with the release of 'Hey Willy', as it expired short of the Top Twenty at #22. A bad pattern was definitely emerging at home, and things were getting even more dire in the U.S. Charts, with 'Bottom' tanking at a lowly #85, and 'Gasoline' and 'Willy' not charting at all. Epic Records, the group's US label, would sit on the 'Distant Light' LP until June '72, only releasing it when 'Long Cool Woman' rocketed up the charts.
In light of these diminishing returns, perhaps Hicks thought a reset was in order, a more up-to-date remodelling of the The Hollies style, and went to left field for Rickfors. It was a bold move and they did sound great with Mikael, but the public wasn't thrilled. 'The Baby' continued the chart slide at #26 in Britain, and failed to chart stateside. What made things even worse for the new Rickfors Hollies, was that the Clarke-led 'Long Cool Woman' was a monster hit, and although it got the new-look group a U.S. tour, it couldn't have come at a worse time, putting them very much in the shadow of the classic group. As they say, timing is everything, and it did Hick's gamble no favours.
In America, in the wake of the Distant Light LP's success, a US #21, Romany jumped into the charts at # 84 and then....fell away. Magic Woman Touch struggled to #60 before expiring, and further Rickfors-Hollies singles all died stillborn, while in Britain nothing charted after 'The Baby's' brief showing. No surprise then that Hicks went back in search of Clarke.
The strange thing was that The Hollies future hadn't looked very bright with Clarke, say in '71 either, but fate and LCW changed all that, although in the long term (after '75), The Hollies were no more successful with Clarke than perhaps they would have been had Rickfors stayed on.
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Post by gee on Nov 27, 2016 21:45:07 GMT
Mike was a longtime friend of the band since 1967 when his group Bamboo opened for The Hollies in Sweden (much like how future 'Shadow' John Farrar's Aussie band The Strangers opened for The Shadows in 1966)
Knowing nobody sounded remotely like Allan Clarke as a lead singer Hicks had little choice but to go for a contrast - I believe they even considered Carl Wayne but at the time he was doing his solo career in cabaret etc having not long left a group set up himself
Mike was and is a very talented guy of course, plus a gifted songwriter BUT he spoke little English then, and did have accent problems hence the cutting vocals up into sections increasing studio time - and costs of course ! (something quite alien to the quickly nailing a track Hollies - Bobby says they nailed 'Bus Stop' in 45 minutes in May 1966)
plus Mike had no desire to be the out front focal point of the band - hence they stand in a line ('Magic Woman Touch') or put Tony & Bernie out front with Terry and Mike behind next to Bobby's drumkit ('The Baby') - Mike liked being a frontline band member, often standing next to Tony Hicks to the side as opposed to taking the featured central stage position (only moving there when he had to for 'He Ain't Heavy' etc)
I have heard that Mike was getting homesick too...and was relieved to go home to Sweden in 1973 feeling embarressed by the whole episode (he should not be tho !)
the UK music press happily took the change as the oppertunity to kick the 'pop group' Hollies in 1972 at a time when to them suddenly 'serious' rock was all important - thus the new line up and 'Romany' got a right (unfair) critical blasting - 'Allan Clarke RIGHT to leave Hollies...' (a scathing music press review of 'Romany' headline went), unsurprisingly the album flopped in the UK.
without any tour of the UK, and in truth a USA tour before they were ready the Rickfors Hollies found themselves on a 'hiding to nothing' in the UK and USA with the wider public
that said 'The Baby' DID make no.26 with scant TV show promotion in the UK most in the UK probably never knew about 'Magic Woman Touch' either - tho' it charted in other countries
and longtime Hollies tour manager Rod Shields once said; 'trying to find Mike with a spotlight was like going after an escaping convict !' indicating they felt their live show was not what they wanted...
Tony had to sing 'Carrie Anne' and his 'Long Dark Road', Terry sang 'LCW' and Mike later spoke of his having to sing a 'silly pop song' in 'Bus Stop' - when surely they wanted to really do THEIR recorded album tracks in shows ...so in retrospect it's clear that USA tour was an unexpected and certainly unplanned thing thrown upon them when they would have preferred more studio work to get the vocals together more quickly and rehearsals to get a stage show just as they really wanted it
telling comment from Bernie Calvert in that radio Hollies story 'They Ain't Heavy....';
'it was left to Tony and Terry who had to try to re-create as much of The Hollies vocal sound as they could...'
the fact Hicks met up with Clarke in 1973 tells us everything - both parties knew they needed each other
yet in retrospect they probably would have been far wiser to keep Mike in the band, and Hicks could have done that at that one point had he accepted Clarke's offer to do the USA tour by making it a proviso of his allowing Clarke back in - but then that's easy hindsight
events re LCW probably doomed the Rickfors band, but I think the studio time issue plus the band having too much of a 'pop' identity (Mickie Most's dartboard again) were just as big issues for that version of the group re any wider public acceptance of The Rickfors Hollies
individual fans may rate The Rickfors Hollies as their personal favorite line up...but the wider public clearly much preferred the Allan Clarke fronted Hollies, who continued having chart singles around the world throughout the seventies and topped the UK chart again in 1988 having occasional chart singles right up to 1993, and even after 'The Air That I Breathe' in 1974 still managed to achieve No.2 and No. 4 chart albums in the UK in 1977-78
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Post by moorlock2003 on Nov 27, 2016 22:01:48 GMT
Look and listen to The Hollies on In Concert. They NEVER rocked harder than with Rickfors! The band was superb. If anyone disputes that, you're out of your mind. Compare the way they sounded in 72-3 to the '76 live album, which is polished but ultimately a bit boring. Britishers are just jealous because we in the US got the Rickfors lineup live and you didn't, and the band's biggest US hit wasn't a hit in the UK. So there!
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Post by gee on Nov 27, 2016 22:11:48 GMT
But that's pure individual opinion, it could be equally argued the 80's line up with Alan Coates on second guitar , Ray Stiles on bass, Ian Parker on keyboards were every bit as powerful when 'Rockin' and were largely a far tighter group in concerts from that 1973 footage I've watched and the live CD I have of the Rickfors band in concert
while accusing people of being out of their minds for NOT sharing YOUR opinion is just bigoted nonsense - as is your Britishers are jealous remark !
you in the USA FAILED to accept The Rickfors line up...didn't you ?
it might be said with some accuracy that the Americans 'wanting Allan' (as Terry Sylvester said) ultimately sealed the Rickfors Hollies fate
so you can only blame your fellow countrymen and women really for the demise of your fav Hollies line up - not us Britishers !
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Post by moorlock2003 on Nov 27, 2016 22:13:06 GMT
I like the '72-3 lineup because it presented 3 lead singers instead of one, making more variety in the music, live and in the studio.
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Post by gee on Nov 27, 2016 22:18:47 GMT
well Clarke, Hicks, Nash all took leads (i.e. 'Butterfly') Clarke Hicks Sylvester did too Clarke, Hicks, Coates line up featured three lead vocalists in their concerts Wayne, Hicks, Coates and Ray Stiles all took leads in the 2000 concert I saw Howarth, Hicks, Lauri and Ray Stiles and Ian Parker all take leads in concerts by the current Hollies too - their last studio album featured leads by Howarth, Hicks and Lauri
so hows that for variety in the line ups ?
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Post by cameron on Nov 27, 2016 23:29:24 GMT
I've always liked the Rickfors era, not necessarily for the change in sound but the change in attitude in the studio. Worried that they wouldn't be successful - coupled with Mikael struggling with pronunciation - meant that Romany was a superbly crafted album. Without doubt, the most involved and meticulous LP they ever released. I heard something like they withdrew it from Polydor three times before release to perfect it. This was just unknown for the Hollies who were notoriously one take specialists. I guess they'd also recently parted company with Ron Richards who didn't want to stick by them once Allan left. Perhaps this was the key? No pressure to wrap up in time for last orders at the "Abbey Tavern"!
Listen to something like 'Touch', the way it so delicately builds up, the overdubbed harmonies (the first time they'd properly done that, which would become their standard later on) and the "duelling" guitar solo which is Tony first and then Mikael. Suddenly you've got Bernie playing a lot more keyboards, Terry switching things up with extra percussion, Mikael playing guitar, bass and keyboards. It's an exciting album from start to finish. That said, it was a one off as Out On The Road was nowhere near as well crafted but still a good LP.
That said, live they were rocking too around that era but they already had been since 1964! It's a shame no pre-1966 bootlegs survive. I've heard one from 1968 and it's a lot more exciting than the officially released Lewisham Odeon set, which is still a great live set. But I now understand why the Hollies were unhappy with it at the time. They wavered a bit in 1969 with their cabaret act, but returned again in 1970 with an absolutely blistering live rendition of 'Gasoline Alley Bred' which was always consistently way better than the studio version as Bobby's drums were too far mixed back and someone in their wisdom slowed the master tape down. I think the Rickfors era was exciting because they mixed things up a bit by changing their instrumentation a lot on stage but reviewers at the time said this was confusing and time consuming at times.
Someone suggested that they'd have been better putting the Hollies to bed and starting again as a new band, much like the Small Faces became The Faces etc... as then they weren't tied to their old hits and identity. But heindsight is a wonderful thing... I just enjoy the albums that they issued. They had a brilliant run of LPs right up to around 1977 that were sadly overlooked at the time and still are to some extent.
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Post by eric on Nov 28, 2016 6:56:29 GMT
Although I enjoy The Hollies recordings with Mikael Rickfors, I believe that Allan Clarke’s voice underpins the internationally accepted “Hollies sound”.
The Hollies had 14 top ten Allan Clarke led singles in the Adelaide, Australia market prior to the release of the single “The Baby” with Mikael. This 45 went to no. 10 on the charts and the band’s next single “Magic Woman Touch” was similarly successful, making it to no. 12. However, the much slighter (next) single with Rickfors, “Slow Down, Go Down”, only reached no. 22 (for a very short 3 week stay in the charts). After the departure of Rickfors and the return of Allan Clarke to the band, “Curly Billy” went to no. 14 followed by the huge hit, “The Air That I Breathe”, which peaked at no. 2. The next single, the lacklustre “Son Of A Rotten Gambler” stalled at no. 18 and was to be the band’s last single to make the Adelaide charts.
These chart entries demonstrate that the quality of a song is a key determinant of chart success. “The Baby”, “Magic Woman Touch”, “Curly Billy” and “The Air That I Breathe” were all strong and well performed songs that appealed to listeners and thus they were successful.
However, although the band remained excellent performers throughout the Seventies, IMHO, with some exceptions, the general quality of their songs from 1974 to 1979 declined to such an extent that their new singles and non-compilation and live albums were unsuccessful.
Contrast this with a similar 3 part harmony band, The Little River Band, a band whose key members were influenced by The Hollies. LRB enjoyed great success in the USA from 1976 to 1982 with a lead singer who was only 2 years younger than Clarke. So from an ageing perspective, the ages of Hollies would not have diminished their chart potential. Nor were 3 part harmonies out of vogue. (The Bee Gees were 3 part harmony band too!) It was the songs that were the problem. In short, if The Hollies material was not strong, then it mattered little if Clarke or Rickfors sang lead. Having said that, IMHO, with Clarke out front, the odds of success were greater.
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Post by gee on Nov 28, 2016 10:32:42 GMT
Romany began as a more folk tinged acoustic album - very influenced by CSN ! - hence songs such as 'Blue in The Morning' and Mike's ballad 'Touch' from his Bamboo days
they cut all the electric Rock tracks in a bunch at the end and dropped 'Papa Rain' from the album, thus it became more of a mixture of styles (as was 'Distant Light' before it) which indicated they were reluctant to go 100% into a new idiom and their old 'commercial' sense won out (probably a reaction due to their earlier 'Butterfly' experience)
Ron Richards had produced 'The Baby' but dropped out of 'Romany' feeling (as with 'King Midas' / 'Marrakesh Express') that the tracks were not commercial....
later Richards came back to supervise the mixing of 'Out on The Road' which is why he's credited as 'Executive Producer' (Bobby told me that)
Richards suggested the low key 'Son of A Rotten Gambler' - itself a decent enough song and expert group performance, penned by Chip Taylor (of 'Wild Thing' fame who had of course given them two earlier hits in 'I Can't Let Go' and 'The Baby') but it really was an album track not a single in my opinion (maybe used best as a second track after a powering first track etc) and while a fine song/recording simply was not memorable enough as a follow up to the smash hit 'Air That I Breathe' - even if it DID actually make the charts in five countries, reaching no.10 in New Zealand, no.16 in Holland, no.24 in Belgium,, no.30 in Germany plus a lower chart position of no.69 in Australia
- so overall it wasn't quite the 'flop' we think of it being....
I recall on an 'odds and ends' tape of Hollies songs I did many years ago I put it after opening track 'Hey Willy' and then followed it with 'Hello Lady Goodbye' which went really well....!
- 'Gambler' actually resembles 'King Midas' in the structure of the arrangement going from a quieter solo vocal/guitar opening...to group playing, then via a bigger 'bridge'section up to a full band/orchestral accompaniment conclusion and fadeout ending....and Richards had deemed 'King Midas' to be too complex to work as a single in 1967 !
the fact is for UK tastes 'Gambler' was just too low key to work after 'Air That I Breathe' maybe a driving rockin track such as Tony's 'Tip of The Iceberg' or the more dance orientated Clarke version of 'Out on The Road' - both complete opposites to a ballad - would have worked better ?
more uptempo singalong style songs would have stood a better chance with the wider general public in the seventies on their singles, with just the occasional ballad in between
I think they tried too hard to be mega melodramatic too often on the seventies singles - I'm sure they COULD have had more UK hit singles, and possibly a few more USA chart hits too had they kept their singles livelier and more cheerful, too often they sounded rather mournful instead of cheerful (an over reaction by the band to their sixties singles I suspect)
they DID continue having chart hits overseas for quite a long time - and with songs such as 'Soldier's Song' and 'The Woman I Love' in 1980 and 1993 making the lower end of the UK singles chart minus any real promotion ('Find Me A Family' made no.79 too in 1989) clearly their WAS still some commercial potential in the band's output registering with the wider public right up to Clarke's final single
had they gone for maybe 'That'll Be The Day' as opposed to the dreary 'Heartbeat'...plus 'If The Lights Go Out' also been released in 1980, and gone with 'Laughter Turns To Tears' in 1985, given 'Stand By Me' and 'Shine Silently' a UK release too - and bothered to promote them ! - they might have had some further success (?)
endless ballads certainly DIDN'T work...that was quite clear as early as 1975 !
one thing I do suspect was that they really were NOT that bothered...they had the stage show largely built on 'Twenty Golden Greats' sixties / early seventies hits, which ensured healthy touring returns, and making new records was something that made them look more credible BUT when 'He Ain't Heavy' topped the UK chart in 1988 (in spite of them not due to) they suddenly had the "Eric Haydock tells all..." unflattering press story...with their kids getting 'ribbed' about that ...plus Allan Clarke complaining he was being recognised once more in his local supermarket
as The Searchers said; 'See The Hollies on 'Top of The Pops'...didn't they look MISERABLE ? - we would be over the moon if we had another number one hit...!!'
I think the Hollies were deep down quite content to just be 'yesterday's heroes' from the later seventies onwards...probably a major reason a frustrated Terry Sylvester departed in 1981
I have been quietly - and very respectfully - working away at Bobby and Tim Chacksfield suggesting EMI / Warners consider a follow up CD set to 'Changin Times' to cover the Polydor years from Clarke's return in 1973 ('Curly Billy' onwards) plus hopefully the WEA recordings with Nash in 1983 and maybe some later EMI & Coconut records 80's songs too if there's room....(??)
hopefully they might do it before too long, at least some of the rarer 'B' sides such as; 'C'mon', 'Corrine', 'Crossfire' etc might then finally get a belated UK release on CD...
we shall see...
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Post by dirtyfaz on Nov 28, 2016 13:11:11 GMT
Lots of interesting and valid points by everyone here. I have seen all versions of the Hollies live except the Nash era (Tour to Australia was cancelled due to illness) and like Moorlock I feel that the Rickfors version live was the most powerful. I saw them during their cabaret period doing cabaret at Chequers Night Club here in Sydney (twice actually)and it sure was cabaret. Saw all the Clarke led versions (some several time each tour) after Rickfors and none matched the power of that Rickfors concert. That being said it is just my opinion. Recording wise I don't have any preference as to which version of the band I like best although the current version comes across as a bit lifeless to me. Just goes through the show without much emotion. Unfortunately Their tour next year will be the first time I won't see the band out here. They may have been better this time. Lots of comments re chart positions of singles. All true and relevant. I sort of feel that the band focused too heavily on having 45 success to their detriment. I also thing that Romany was an attempt by the band to become an albums band hence the effort put into the production of the LP. No one has really commented on this. A lot of emphasis being placed on chart position of singles. The only thing really to add is that it was what it was. Can't change history.
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Post by gee on Nov 28, 2016 13:52:55 GMT
I think they were always of the view that whenever they tried to do solely a more 'album orientated' project not including at least UK singles - i.e. 'In The Hollies Style', 'Butterfly', 'Hollies Sing Hollies', 'Distant Light', 'Romany' etc...the sales duly FELL OFF !
the wider public seemed to prefer them as essentially a 'singles band' which is frustrating to us and no doubt was to the band members - Nash and Sylvester especially (Rickfors too I would think) - that dartboard again !
hence they became obsessed with ballads (hoping for another 'Heavy' / 'Can't Tell The Bottom...' / 'Air') and opted to 'sing Dylan', 'Live Hits', 'Buddy Holly' rather than do another more ambitious album project
the wider public really dictated their moves - hence Jennifer Eccles over King Midas...
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Post by cameron on Nov 28, 2016 19:11:44 GMT
Both "Hollies" (1965) and "Would You Believe" were seen at the time to be more album orientated in their NME reviews and they reached number 8 and 16 in the UK charts respectively. "For Certain Because..." peaked at number 23 and "Evolution" at 13... even the commercial 'flop' "Hollies Sing Dylan" reached number 3 in the UK chart! But I don't count chart placings at all as a measure of success in the 1960's at all. Don't forget, "Hollies Greatest" in 1968 was dislodged by the Sound Of Music soundtrack which was still selling THREE YEARS after release! It was just a different world then, the young "teenyboppers' just couldn't afford LPs, hence why bands needed killer singles. Just for compare, The Kinks Are The Village Green Preservation Society and The Zombies' Odessey And Oracle are two of the most renowned LPs of the 1960's and both sank without a trace upon release. It doesn't matter one iota what the chart placing was, all that shows is the popularity, not whether the album was any good.
Distant Light sank without a trace too, and it's a flawless LP from start to finish. Same with Butterfly, Romany and Another Night. It just means that the public weren't buying it. It was a different world back then. You have to remember that there was just too much good music to choose from at the time, and riding high on the charts were Ken Dodd, Engelbert Humperdinck, Mrs Mills and the South Pacific Sountrack! I think a general lack of promotion from EMI (who no longer took invested interests in the Hollies after their revolutionary management deal), a lack of pushing from the remaining Hollies themselves and nearly 40 years of having a very steady similar live set have meant that their album catalogue gets criminally overlooked. I'm glad that HMV is stocking their "Classic Album Series" and I'm hopeful that Vol.3 will come along soon as their pre-1976 album catalogue is superb.
Anyway, we could sit and say 'what if' forever, but it is what it is. All we can do now is look to the future and hope that the wider public embrace the Hollies in the 1960's and 1970's revival that seems to be coming more and more to the fore - no doubt aided by the recent surge in vinyl sales, which I'm sure is what pushed the Hollies to re-issue Evolution and Butterfly. Although I've so far not seen Butterfly in any shops yet, though Evolution is available in lots of places
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Post by stuball on Nov 28, 2016 22:40:32 GMT
I also thing that Romany was an attempt by the band to become an albums band hence the effort put into the production of the LP. No one has really commented on this. A lot of emphasis being placed on chart position of singles. This brought to mind a remark Tony Hicks made at the end of the U.S. Tour to promote Romany, that really said it all. I'll have to paraphrase here, but it went something like this: 'We went over with the thought to promote the LP Romany, and included several tracks in our set. But it was the same old story: the crowd would sit quiet and polite through these numbers, but at the end of the day, it was the 'Carrie-Annes' that they really wanted to hear.'
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Post by anthony on Nov 29, 2016 4:01:52 GMT
I also thing that Romany was an attempt by the band to become an albums band hence the effort put into the production of the LP. No one has really commented on this. A lot of emphasis being placed on chart position of singles. This brought to mind a remark Tony Hicks made at the end of the U.S. Tour to promote Romany, that really said it all. I'll have to paraphrase here, but it went something like this: 'We went over with the thought to promote the LP Romany, and included several tracks in our set. But it was the same old story: the crowd would sit quiet and polite through these numbers, but at the end of the day, it was the 'Carrie-Annes' that they really wanted to hear.' Hey we are all the same really, many years ago I went to see Cliff Richard and he spoke about the new album at the time and then sang every song from the album, not what I really wanted to hear.
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Post by Gralto on Nov 29, 2016 11:32:54 GMT
well Clarke, Hicks, Nash all took leads (i.e. 'Butterfly') Clarke Hicks Sylvester did too Clarke, Hicks, Coates line up featured three lead vocalists in their concerts Wayne, Hicks, Coates and Ray Stiles all took leads in the 2000 concert I saw Howarth, Hicks, Lauri and Ray Stiles and Ian Parker all take leads in concerts by the current Hollies too - their last studio album featured leads by Howarth, Hicks and Lauri so hows that for variety in the line ups ? Gee - Hicks never sang a lead song though during the 60s on stage did he? Sure there is the odd verse in Too Much Monkey Business, Carrie Anne and the like but he was never a third solo voice ala George and Ringo given his own feature songs until Rickfors forced his hand?
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