Hollies singing Dylan onstage and...Peter Paul and Mary!!!

[Gralto]

As a follow on from the thread marked 'Hello from a newbie":

Yes in terms of Dylan songs, they did The Times They Are A Changin' from 1966-68 - it appears they dropped this from the sets after Nash departed, never to reappear. And JohnT, your memory is correct, I do indeed have Like A Rolling Stone listed for that March 67 tour with Tony Mansfield filling in for the recuperating Bobby Elliott.
Around the time of the Sing Dylan album, given how successful the album was as a seller, they certainly didn't flog THAT many of the 12 tracks during 1969 shows. Three songs at most, often less, would be included in any given gig, depending upon the venue (university versus concert hall versus cabaret bookings).
I'll Be Your Baby Tonight was pretty much a year round staple within 1969 setlists but other songs to get a look in onstage during this year were Mighty Quinn, Just Like A Woman, When The Ship Comes In, Blowin' In The Wind (which often became a staple of German concerts in later years), and Wheels On Fire. And Gee is 100% correct, You Ain't Going Nowhere was on setlists in the latter half of 1969.

It's not to say these songs were never performed live on stage but my info has failed to uncover any examples of gigs to include the following from the Hollies Sing Dylan album:

I Want You
I Shall Be Released
Quit Your Lowdown Ways (though mimed on various TV shows in 1969)
All I Really Want To Do (though the song was mimed for European TV shows)
My Back Pages

Maybe someone can confirm if they ever saw a Hollies gig with any of the above played live?

The unsung heroes for frequent Hollies inspiration - far more than Dylan in my book though - are Peter Paul & Mary. When you go through the songs they either wrote or recorded versions of on their albums between 1962-66, The Hollies really mined a rich vein of well crafted storytelling songs here. Tony Hicks must take much of the credit here, always an acknowledged listener of their albums. Check out this roll call:

Very Last Day
Stewball
Puff The Magic Dragon (performed live only in 1968 - never studio recorded by The H)
If I Had A Hammer (in 1969 gig setlists)
Settle Down (1969 gig setlist regular - also the BBC "Hollies In Concert" May 1969 special)
The Last Thing On My Mind (in July 1969 gig setlists)

PP&M also recorded 4 Dylan songs that would find their way as Hollies-selected recordings: The Times They Are A Changin', Blowin' In The Wind, I Shall Be Released and When The Ship Comes In years earlier than The Hollies. In particular, check out PP&Ms 1963 album 'In The Wind' and look at the track listing - 4 of the 12 became Hollies songs recorded in the studio. Indeed, a quick search of the folk trio's first five studio albums reveals at least one of the tracks listed above.

IMHO, the trio really have never received the acclaim from members of The Hollies in interviews over the years, of how frequent a borrower they were of their song catalogue. Time to right a wrong?
cheers
Simon

PS - Gee, you mention recalling The Hollies doing Tonight I'll Be Staying Here With You somewhere - I have no info on that, so that's a new one for me - thanks for that. Recall anything further as to place/date etc?

[cameron]

In Germany 1979, they reprised "I'll Be Your Baby Tonight" as a surprise encore. I'm fascinated at the idea of them performing 'Like A Rolling Stone' in 1967 - I'd LOVE to hear that but sadly I doubt we will. Ditto on The Last Thing On My Mind too.

I'm amazed at how many covers they did in their live sets that weren't recorded in the studio by them: Reach Out I'll Be There, Too Much Monkey Business (which survived in the set as late as 1971!), Let It Be, Woodstock, Puff The Magic Dragon, Blood Red Roses, Amazing Grace, Only Love Can Break Your Heart, Wasted On The Way, Teach Your Children, A Whiter Shade Of Pale, Purple Rain... they had such a big catalogue to pick from but chose other people's songs instead. Then again, that was very common in the late 1960's. The set at the Marquee Club by the Move only has about two songs that were actually recorded by them, almost the whole set is made up of covers.

PP&M's 'In The Wind' was arguably their most successful album, it took off in a big way in the UK in 1963. Bob Dylan was a good friend of the group, who gave them a lot of his songs way before anyone else. They don't seem to be that well remembered full stop, never mind just by the Hollies. Shame, because I think their approach to folk music was a lot more listenable than Dylan. As Tony Hicks said around the time of Hollies Sing Dylan, that his songs sounded like they were just basic demos.

[Gralto]

Hi Cam - I'm sure you didn't mean to put in Too Much Monkey Business in your list as of course this is front and centre on side 2 of the 1964 In The Hollies Style album. Purple Rain was also done in the studio, not just live - Gee or Dirty Faz will have the details I think.

Hollies useless trivia time - Paul Anka's Eso Beso (sometimes listed as Esso Besso) was also a number performed onstage during some 1969 Hollies gigs! There are no live recordings, official or fan recorded AFAIK, of that one around. Be interesting to hear how The H did this bossa nova number, whether done seriously or as a bit of a larf.

[gee]

yeah the non officially released concert covers early on included songs such as; 'High School Confidential', later 'Reelin and Rockin', 'Ride Your Pony', 'Hold Me',  'Shake !' (done at the BBC) and 'You Don't Know Like I Know' (sung in Stockholm December 1966) among others....

The now quite rare studio recording of 'Purple Rain' was a concert only 12 inch single and cassette release on their own label in 1990 with 'Naomi' and 'Two Shadows' - the studio version has excessive echo on Allan Clarke's lead vocal, which apparently was done without their knowledge - per Rob Haywood in a phone chat with me - tho' I'm surprised they would let it go out like that !

we do need a latter Clarke era CD compilation covering 1985 to 1999 of studio and live tracks

Bobby Elliott was taken ill around 14 February 1967 with a swollen appendix that developed into the potentially fatal peritonitis and Dakotas drummer Tony Mansfield deputised for the UK package tour with Paul Jones, The Spencer Davis Group over 11 March 1967 at Granada theatre, Mansfield (apt) through to 2 April 1967 at the Empire theatre,Liverpool.

Against advice Bobby returned 'post op' a bit too quickly for two shows during that period on 25-26 March 1967 at the ABC Theatre, Blackpool, but found it too tough and had to then complete his full recuperation and Tony deputised for the rest of the tour

Tony Mansfield was really Tony Bookbinder and I believe was singer Elkie Brooks brother

blonde drummer Tony Newman of Sounds Incorporated and later The Jeff Beck Group deputised for the Ken Dodd TV show 'Doddy's Music Box' on 9 March 1967, while drummers Clem Cattini, Dougie Wright and John 'Mitch' Mtichell had played on the remaining 'Evolution' tracks during Bobby's absence.


They plug the 'Sing Dylan' album a fair bit in that TV special (recorded I think in Germany) and screened in Finland where they do 'When The Ship Comes In', 'Wheels on Fire', 'Quit Your Low Down Ways', 'I'll Be Your Baby Tonight'

I think it was on the radio I heard them sing Dylan's 'Tonight I'll Be Staying Here With You'- a longtime Hollies lady fan told me she too remembered hearing them do it...it was with Terry Sylvester of course but I can't recall the date tho' Jeff Beck Group also covered the song on the album 'Jeff Beck Group' issued in 1972, it was done with Allan Clarke so might be just post Rickfors era if that helps ?

I think it was Allan Clarke who was mainly behind all the later cover versions they did in concerts - 'When Doves Cry' was probably because one of his children was a big Prince fan

they did 'Riders on The Storm', 'Norwegian Wood', 'A Whiter Shade of Pale', various Rock & Roll classics (even put snippets of Johnny Kidd's 'Shakin All Over' and Cliff Richard's 'Move it' into 'Long Cool Woman..')

all o.k.of course tho' personally I would have rather they explored their OWN vast back catalogue as opposed to forever paying tribute to artists who very probably would NEVER have ever sung a Hollies song live in return !

I recall a fan once asked for 'Crusader' during a concert I attended
- Allan Clarke said he'd never heard of it (!) - he only co-wrote it with Tony and Graham...
Hicks had to remind him; 'it's an old album track',
Clarke replied; 'Not by us ?' - Hicks responded; 'YES...by US !'

Clarke also belittled 'Fifi The Flea' - 'bloody daft song, I refused to sing it...' (hardly very professional)

that December 1966 Stockholm concert shows Allan Clarke could not even remember the name of their latest new album...!


contrast all that with a Shadows fan who during a 1980's Shads concert requested 'The Breeze And I' (an old  1963 UK  'B' side)

- Hank Marvin said; 'I remember that, it was great fun to do...' and he began an impromptu version on guitar alone...a few bars which got a round of applause and looked as if The Shads could effortlessly reel off their entire back catalogue !

all The Hollies concert cover versions plus them doing 'Buddy Holly' album in 1980, and  going bonkers over outside songwriters like Bruce Springsteen...and rather 'average' writers (in my view) such as Paul Bliss, later Rob Davis etc seems to indicate a staggering lack of self belief in The Hollies (hence them hiding away their own songs as 'Ransford' early on ?) which was clearly exacerbated all the more after Nash left the group...

producer Ron Richards seemed  keener on them doing covers by 'proper' composers (hence his suggesting  'That's My Desire' in 1965) and the reversion to other writers after 'We're Through' only made no.7 in 1964 (hardly a flop)

the 'King Midas...'/'Marrakesh Express'/ 'Long Cool Woman' issues with Richards plus his pushing 'Son of A Rotten Gambler' on them in 1974 suggest he wasn't as 100% behind them as composers as say George Martin was re The Beatles...despite all the big hits they had written.

Re Peter Paul and Mary - they namecheck them during the February 1969 Golders Green Hippodrome concert - their three part vocal harmonies must have been a big influence on The Hollies moving from the two part Everlys harmony of 'Rickie and Dane' to their three part 'Hollies sound', while the folk-protest style with a county tinge was a big influence on them musically from numbers like the PPM covers and material ('Stewball' etc) to the more reflective songs of their own like; 'So Lonely', 'Hard Hard Year', up to later items such as their 1969 country covers then 'Please Sign Your Letters', 'Lonely Hobo Lullaby' etc which you could imagine PPM also performing...

later sixties PPM albums such as 'Late Again' saw the trio doing beatier  Dylan covers such as 'Too Much of Nothing' plus they were covering country artists like John Denver ('Leaving on A Jetplane') etc...so the influences and similarities re Hollies and PPM are certainly there.

[cameron]

Right you are Simon re "Too Much Monkey Business". Totally slipped my mind there. It does seem strange that they'd reprise it as late as 1971 when they had much better songs to be performing live. Again, a firm lack of belief in themselves.

As for self-composed album tracks performed live, there are fewer of them than there are covers. What's Wrong With The Way I Live, The Games We Play, Butterfly, Frightened Lady, Gloria Swansong (VERY odd choice to say they did it without an orchestra), Long Dark Road, Touch (plus quite a few other songs from Romany, though not self-composed), Pick Up The Pieces, Don't Let Me Down, Lucy, Write On, My Island, Star, Burn Out, Writing On The Wall...

I don't think we'll ever see a 1985-1993 CD for the Hollies because, let's be honest, they didn't release anything worthwhile during that period. Just one lousy synth driven song after the other with a very aged looking Allan Clarke appearing reluctantly to mime the tracks on TV. Only 'Purple Rain' seems to attract merit. The live version is so similar to the studio version, like you say, minus the awful reverb on Allan's voice.

Allan did indeed name check Peter Paul and Mary on their 1969 "In Concert" show: "the next number we're going to do is a number by Peter Paul and Mary - this one's Mary, right? (Points to To y Hicks)"!

It's a shame that mobile phones didn't exist 50 years ago to capture more of these concerts! Lots of fans took cameras, but I bet 95% of their photos didn't turn out very well as the lighting would have been too poor. And there was seldom auto focus in those early days. It would be interesting to see some live shots of the boys sort of pre-1976. After then, there seems to be a lot. There's a few I've got of them very early on, circa 1963/4, quite a lot from their Scandinavian tour of late 1966, some UK dates in early 1967, Sweden late 1967 (in full psychedelia mode!), Japan early 1968, their "cabaret tour" of 1968, with Terry in 1969 and Australia 1970/1. Wish I could get back on to my Photobucket account to upload some of them! Anyone know how I can easily share them on this forum?

[Stranger]

I've been beating the PPM- connection drum for years! Notice how in For The Times They Are A Changin' PPM would switch to a quietly sung Mary Travers solo for "Come mothers and fathers..." the Hollies would copy this exactly with Nash taking that part. Also in the BBC concert doesn't Allan even say "He's Mary" to Terry to Tony?

[gee]

it's a bit of a offhand 'blanket dismissal' to say they never recorded ANYTHING worthwhile during the 1985-1993 period !

'Laughter Turns To Tears' was a great rockin track, while 'Shine Silently' with it's glorious acapella intro on the 12 inch extended single version were two notable efforts

also 'Stand By Me' (which charted in Germany) was a good rockin track too, and 'Find Me A Family' had strong harmonies and stalled at no.79 in the UK charts (I can't recall many record shops actually stocking it in my area)

'The Woman I Love' charted in the UK reaching no.42 on the strength of some radio airplay and positive feedback by local radio Disc Jockeys alone - despite no promotion by EMI to speak of ! - proof the wider public must have enjoyed it, and that they still had some commercial appeal with UK singles buyers as late as 1993

I think 'Your Eyes' had fine vocals too, while Tony's poignant 'Hillsborough' (with a rare Hicks lead vocal) was a thought provoking number made all the more relevant as a piece of social comment per recent developments

Clarke's 'Two Shadows' is an interesting track too, and 'No Rules' has a cool loose jam feel to it with decent guitarwork

Tony and Paul Hicks song 'Naomi' was an enjoyable song too, and to date Tony's last penned Hollies number

while a decent remix of the studio 'Purple Rain' reducing the excessive reverb on Clarke's voice would enable that song to reach it's full potential too

a remix to bring up the far too distant backing vocals on 'Nothing Else But Love' would enhance that rare non UK song as well

'You're All Woman' was o.k., yes it's keyboard led but that doesn't instantly make it some sort of  'crime' does it ?, maybe it's not to everyone's taste but for it's time it was quite contemporary and I know of collectors who were eagerly trying to track it down...

I loathed 'Baby Come Back'....all 'tinny' keyboards etc, BUT that too charted in Germany so it clearly did have some commercial appeal...

while I'm not personally over keen on very '80's' sounding singles such as 'Too Many Hearts Get Broken', 'This is it' or 'Reunion of The Heart' I know Hollies fans who DO enjoy them so again it's all a matter of opinion and such a compilation IS important as it bridges a overlooked Hollies era that does have it's merits, notably strong vocal work

A 'blanket dismissal' of that era is pure opinion, not fact, likewise I don't buy this idea about The Hollies going to pieces after 1975 either

- it's the opinions of some people only and while that is perfectly valid as an opinion it is most certainly NOT a view shared by many others both in Hollies circles and beyond

[eric]

On 1st February 1970, The Hollies played an outdoor concert in Adelaide, Australia, which I attended. From my notes written at that time, they performed the following Bob Dylan songs: Just Like A Woman, You Ain’t Going Nowhere, I’ll Be Your Baby Tonight and Blowing In The Wind (the set closer). You Ain’t Going Nowhere was a highlight of the show and it would have fitted beautifully on the Hollies Sing Dylan LP.

With regard to their Peter, Paul & Mary connection, they performed Stewball. Before singing Stewball, Allan said that Tony Hicks would sing Mary’s part. Tony objected to this saying that Terry looked more like Mary than him. Terry responded saying that Allan should do Mary’s part as Allan was a bit “funny”. Oh well, they had just completed a residency at Sydney’s Chequers night club, which may explain this cabaret style exchange.

[dirtyfaz]

About PPM, in an interview for one of the live BBC recordings not long after coming back from the States for the Paramount shows, the conversation about folk music came up between the interviewer and Tony. He said he had all the PPM LPs and the Hollies tried to do at least one or more fold songs on each LP.

[cameron]

Sorry if I've touched a nerve there Gee. That era of the Hollies holds little interest to me, and many others agree. Bobby's drums were now often pushed to the back of the mix (and replaced on some rare occasions with a drum machine!) or at least fettled with a lot to change their sound and he'd notably toned down his style. Tony Hicks too no longer lead most of the tracks with his intricate guitar work. In an effort to remain relevant and contemporary, they allowed for keyboards and synthesisers to take over. To their credit, Alan Coates was a fine harmony singer and had a sort of "Graham Nash tone" to his voice which augmented the singles well. I think he was pulled forward in the mix to compensate for Allan's ailing voice in the later years. But ultimately, it's all a bit "middle of the road". Would the Hollies have survived as a new band on those 1980's and early 1990's singles alone? On the strength that on every occasion that those singles were released and promoted, the leverage was "here's the Hollies who've had all these amazing past hits 20 years ago, here's their latest one", I'm inclined to think not.
But my original point was, there's not enough general interest for the Hollies to ever authorise release of a compilation of this era. If people in the know are already struggling to get the third set in the sequence for 1974-1980 because there's "not enough hit singles to make it appealing to the wider public" as we keep getting told, then a mid 1980's - mid-1990's set has absolutely zero chance of happening. We just can't deny that their career does take a downward turn after around 1977 and that "1974-1980" and "1981-1995" would just never compare sales wise to "Clarke Hicks & Nash Years" and "Changing Times". We can't even get reissues of the studio albums with bonus tracks and you know how much of a struggle it is to get unreleased recordings issued. I just can't see this compilation ever happening, that was my original point and I think I've explained why I think this.

Back on track with the thread, Chris is right. On one of the early BBC sessions, Tony talks to Brian Matthew about the emerging folk scene where Tony makes a point of declaring his love for PP&M. I think the session was from early 1965, promoting "Hollies" which of course featured 'Very Last Day'. Tony said how glad he was that the folk scene was becoming more to the fore as mainstream artists such as the Hollies went further down that route and away from the whole "British Invasion" rock and roll sound.

[Gralto]

Jul 14, 2016 13:09:15 GMT eric said:

On 1st February 1970, The Hollies played an outdoor concert in Adelaide, Australia, which I attended. From my notes written at that time, they performed the following Bob Dylan songs: Just Like A Woman, You Ain’t Going Nowhere, I’ll Be Your Baby Tonight and Blowing In The Wind (the set closer). You Ain’t Going Nowhere was a highlight of the show and it would have fitted beautifully on the Hollies Sing Dylan LP.

With regard to their Peter, Paul & Mary connection, they performed Stewball. Before singing Stewball, Allan said that Tony Hicks would sing Mary’s part. Tony objected to this saying that Terry looked more like Mary than him. Terry responded saying that Allan should do Mary’s part as Allan was a bit “funny”. Oh well, they had just completed a residency at Sydney’s Chequers night club, which may explain this cabaret style exchange.

Hi Eric - care to share the full setlist (in play order) from your Adelaide 1970 gig?
cheers
Simon

[Gralto]

Thanks Cam and DirtyFaz - I'd forgotten about that BBC interview - thanks for sharing.

On the subject of the Hollies' 1985 -90s 45 output, I think some of their tracks still stand up today, from a vocal and melody perspective. Fully agree with Gee that Shine Silently and Laughter Turns To Tears reek of top shelf Hollies quality - the former has the most sublime Hollies 3 part harmony since I'm Down and the latter still sounds fresh and contemporary. And I remain the only person on the planet who can happily listen to Baby Come Back (the Hicks refrain and end of that song is a winner!), even if the lyrics are up there with such Hollies travesties as Do You Believe In Love and You Cos You Like It - both of which I like! - but which must have taken a combined total of about 5 minutes to pen!!

[gee]

I think the vocal harmonies on 'Find Me A Family' are excellent too, while 'Stand By Me' and 'Your Eyes' were decent Hollies tracks as well

'The Woman I Love' charted in the UK so clearly had wider appeal if only EMI had bothered to promote it

Alan Coates gave them a fine 'Nash like' high harmony sound, while he could do the more emotive 'Sylvester style' too as on 'Find Me A Family'

most people outside Hollies circles probably haven't ever heard either the carribbean flavoured 'Naomi' or the driving  'Two Shadows' being on a rare concert only 12 inch single or cassette - neither grabbed me much at first but having a friend do a '1985-1993' home made CD compilation they really grew on me when heard in an 'album' style setting - they really needed to cut an album with Alan Coates during that era as much of the good work they did then gets somewhat overlooked  on just one off singles plays...

I found the guitar riffs on 'Two Shadows' were really enjoyable, likewise the 'sneaky' guitarwork on 'No Rules' with Clarke's cool low key vocal delivery.

there is normally good work being done on most Hollies studio recordings, even those that might not be to one's own taste - indeed while I personally detest 'Baby Come Back' there is a part where Hicks guitar 'fires up' that sounds great...only for trendy very "80's" tinny keyboards to overwhelm it again...!

'You're All Woman' is actually quite catchy and while often getting critically 'blasted' I rather like 'Nothing Else But Love' - still a non UK track - where Clarke gives a fine 'sincere' lead vocal, it just needs the backing vocals brought up in the mix I believe...

a couple of tracks in that period are rather controversial - neither of Clarke's songs 'You Gave Me Strength' or 'For What it's Worth (I'm Sorry)' were really intended for The Hollies - the latter only features Clarke and Denis Haines (who salutes 'He Ain't Heavy' at one point) and was of some concern to Hicks and Elliott going under the group name at the time I think

Hicks 'Hillsborough' is both poignant and thought provoking and deserves inclusion on some compilation (it's a bonus cut on 'What Goes Around..' CD)

I'm not keen on the obscure mysterious non single 'Hard To Forget'- the title of which Clarke DID forget on TV !! - but again it's a rarity worth a full release

the stronger tracks they cut then, plus the fine Clarke-Coates collaborations on 'Reasons To Believe' album give us some idea of the Hollies studio album that might have been cut in those latter Clarke years before Allan's voice began to deteriorate...

with regard to the point Simon makes re er 'gems' such as; 'Do You Believe in Love ?' (with a fiery backup guitar), 'You Love Cos You Like it' (don't forget 'Cos You Like To Love Me' virtually the song title rearranged !) and others like the infamous  'Wiggle That Wotsit' (which has great funky Hicks guitarwork, strident drumming, tight Chicago like brasswork) and that later 80's single 'This is it' where an elderly looking all serious and 'moody' **Allan Clarke dressed up like Fonzie from 'Happy Days' warbles lines such as; 'Drag you to a movie...' 

- I'd say it's a case of the weak lyrics that chiefly let these songs down, hence Bernie Calvert  said re 'Wiggle';

 'I cringe each time I hear it...!' 



**Allan Clarke's stage & screen 'image' from 1975 onwards - from bare chest medallion man, to frizzy perm to Donny Osmond stagesuits to 'Fonz' look....are worthy of a thread of it's own !

Allan appeared to 'age in reverse' style wise dressing  like a grandfather way back in 1964 on the cover of 'Stay With The Hollies' complete with an old man's look of braces and cardigan (!)...to trying to look like a trendy early seventies teenager when he was elderly (and his past took it's harsh toll on his features suddenly between 1974 and 1976) his image and appearance not helped by Hicks and Sylvester both then still looking very good and dressing so much better !

[eric]

Hi Simon – in response to your request, the full setlist for the Adelaide concert in February 1970 is:
Carrie Anne
Bus Stop / I’m Alive / Just One Look (Medley)
Just Like A Woman
You Ain’t Going Nowhere
I’ll Be Your Baby Tonight
Stewball
Sorry Suzanne
Reflections Of A Long Time Past (Tony Hicks on bass)
He Ain’t Heavy, He’s My Brother (Tony Hicks on bass)
A Taste Of Honey
Blowing In The Wind

[eric]

The Hollies were accompanied by a local twelve piece orchestra on Just Like A Woman, Reflections Of A Long Time Past, He Ain’t Heavy, He’s My Brother, A Taste Of Honey and Blowing In The Wind.

[Stranger]

Jul 18, 2016 16:00:46 GMT gee said:

a couple of tracks in that period are rather controversial - neither of Clarke's songs 'You Gave Me Strength' or 'For What it's Worth (I'm Sorry)' were really intended for The Hollies - the latter only features Clarke and Denis Haines (who salutes 'He Ain't Heavy' at one point) and was of some concern to Hicks and Elliott going under the group name at the time I think

Very interesting Gee, I'd never heard that before. Would be interesting if someone interviewed the likes of Haines and Stroud on their time in the Hollies. "Someone" with a fanzine maybe!

I've always liked You Gave Me Strength it really reminds me of that Mariah Carey song, which I don't like as Mariah Carey sings it, not Allan Clarke.