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Post by dirtyfaz on Dec 23, 2015 15:02:16 GMT
Over the years there has been a bit of conjecture as to when the first 5 Hollies LP's were mixed to Mono and Stereo.
I know that the UK didn't issue some of the original early LP's in Stereo. Why?
My understanding is that there were mixed to Stereo not too long after the Mono mix. This was usually done to satisfy the European market.
An example is Is The Hollies Style that was originally issued in the UK only in Mono. Years later as Vintage Hollies. The German issue in Stereo was several years before Vintage Hollies was issued in the UK.
Always an indicator was the YEX matrix number on the record label. That referred to a Stereo issue. If it had XEX then it was the Mono version.
What does all this mean. I have just put it out there to see if anyone was interested or actually had some worthwhile ideas as to what was going on.
The Beatles LPs weren't always mixed to Stereo right away but usually soon after to Mono mix was created. I would suggest that was for the European market as well. Germany and other European countries were doing Stereo releases and maybe not issuing any of all those early albums in Mono.
I don't know of any German LP's that are available in Mono. Anyone out can dispute this.
Everyone have a happy Christmas
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Post by cameron on Dec 24, 2015 17:01:07 GMT
Bear with me, here goes...
The first LP, Stay With The Hollies was mixed to mono by Ron Richards and he supervised the stereo mix, which was released alongside the mono LP on the day of release in 1964. Due to the relative poor sales of the stereo version (despite the LP reaching number two in the UK album chart!) the following LP would not be mixed to stereo. This was actually quite common for EMI in the early 1960's, as the cost of producing stereo was extortionate as it meant a new mix (which was studio time, more tape, another stamper, more testing...) and a different pressing and different cover, just bearing the stereo labels and text on the back.
In The Hollies Style was released in the UK in mono only and that was that. The European market demanded the stereo version, and this was released in early 1965 mainly as 'Hollies Days' and also 'In The Hollies Style'. It's not known whether this was mixed at the same time as the mono mix or not, but I don't believe that Ron Richards would have a hand in mixing to stereo at this point. It's a primitive split vocals and instruments mix, despite the album being recorded on a four-track tape machine! it was officially released in the UK in 1967 as 'The Vintage Hollies' on a budget EMI label.
Hollies (1965) was also issued in mono only in the UK. It could be that the stereo mix was prepared at the same time for this album as European versions of the LP started to appear in stereo around the same time as the UK mono LP went on sale, based on what I've found. Also, this album was also taken over to America and it was seemingly available everywhere in stereo except for England! It was released officially in the UK in stereo as 'Reflection' on the EMI budget Starline label. It's a worthwhile pressing as it's on beautiful thick vinyl and carries a YEX - 1 matrix. Perhaps EMI prepared to officially release the album in stereo in 1965, but it was culled at the last minute? Who knows.
Would You Believe is a bit more interesting. It was released in mono in the UK in 1966, but sales were a lot stronger than the previous two albums. Probably because the album featured a single this time, with 'I Can't Let Go' added at the end. The stereo mix went on sale in the UK in March 1967, AFTER the issue of For Certain Because...! it was available as a special order only from record retailers and remains the rarest stereo version of any of the Hollies albums as it was released so long after the album was released initially.
For Certain Because... was the first Hollies album to get a 'proper' stereo mix with a nice spread throughout the two channels. It seems that stereo sold as well as mono. By the time it was released in late 1966, stereo was now being offered in the shops (it had always been special order only as a rule) but stereo LPs did NOT have the EMI advertising inner sleeve, but a blank one instead. That was so that record retailers could quickly tell the difference without having to risk damaging the vinyl by taking it out to see.
Evolution was released in stereo alongside the mono LP. By this point in 1967, EMI were starting to push stereo as it had just won the majority in America. I think the early style split vocal and instrument mix that it has is an EMI gimmick as the sleeve carries the description that you can play it in mono with a stereo pickup wired for mono, but playing on stereo equipment will reveal the "full stereo effect". It was done for two reasons: to emphasise the difference between mono and stereo and also that style of mix folded to mono very easily, without having to plan it so carefully in the mixing process.
Butterfly was perhaps the most worthwhile Hollies album to buy in both stereo and mono as the two mixes vary. Ron Richards' heart wasn't really in psychedelia, and the mono mix is a bit lacklustre, especially when it comes to the sound effect. But it sounds perfect in stereo. It's rumoured that Graham Nash himself had a hand in mixing it to stereo, but I've not heard a second person confirming this. Curiously, the mono pressing was a standard LP, whereas the original UK stereo pressing (YEX - 1 and -2 only) was not banded, just like Sgt. Peppers. So all the tracks run into the next with little or no gap but when you look at the vinyl, there's no bands to divide the songs.
Hollies Greatest is a fantastic LP in mono. It uses all the original single mixes and it's killer from start to finish. The stereo version is a must avoid, though. There's a fault on all YEX -1 and -2 pressings where the left channel is noticeably quieter and overall it lacks any kind of punch.
Hollies Sing Dylan was the last Hollies album released in both mono and stereo, but it is rumoured that the mono mix is just folded down from the stereo mix and tweaked slightly. Having had a go at folding it down myself, some of the stereo panning doesn't quite mix into mono so well, so I believe that it could be a dedicated mono mix, it just doesn't differ from the stereo mix at all in terms of editing, track length and the levels of each instrument etc...
Hollies Sing Hollies was no issued in mono at all. Even the EMI 'tape record' (reel to reel) was issued in stereo and this is very very collectable as it was the last EMI released reel-to-reel before the format was dropped. From then on, every EMI LP would be in stereo, with the exception of 'The Other Side Of The Hollies' in 1978/9 which was in mono (with four tracks in stereo) but it carried the old style PMC matrix on the sleeve and XEX - 1 in the run out groove.
That's all that I know about stereo vs. mono for the Hollies in the UK. I'm happy to be corrected on any of it or add to it, but I hope that answers your question!
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Post by knut on Dec 28, 2015 20:17:59 GMT
Thank you for that detailed overview, Cameron! Argentina released Hollies sing Hollies in mono, and I aquired it, but it seems not to differ from the stereo version. The most important fact about the Hollies Greatest LP in stereo, is the different take for Yes I will. Is there any difference between the Continental stereo Versions of 2nd and 3rd and the UK reissues?
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Post by dirtyfaz on Dec 30, 2015 9:17:23 GMT
No I don't think so Knut. Always easiest the look at the label and see if the YEX number is the same. That is the best way for me. If you check the German In The Hollies Style and the UK Vintage Hollies they have the same YEX number on the label.
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Post by cameron on Dec 30, 2015 11:41:09 GMT
Yes, that was a glaring omission on my part! The stereo version of Hollies' Greatest features the re-worked version of 'Yes I Will' which was unavailable on CD until 20 Golden Greats was issued in the late 1980's. Since then, it's become something of a rarity again. The remastered version on Clarke Hicks & Nash Years is so overcooked that I find it hard to listen to with all the distortion.
Another thing I missed was that the stereo version of Hollies (1965) was issued in 1969, as 'Reflection'.
Some stereo/mono variations for you:
Stay With The Hollies:
Stay - the mono version has a cleaner edit between the verse and the guitar solo with Allan and Graham screaming "come on!" and this is absent in stereo.
Hollies (1965):
Too Many People - the mono version has 'clashing sounds' at the end, whereas the stereo version does not.
Would You Believe?:
I Can't Let Go - the stereo version goes mono for a few seconds in the guitar solo due to a tape error.
Butterfly:
Dear Eloise - the mono version has more reverb on Allan's vocals, the stereo version has a cleaner edit at the end as it goes into the coda, starting from 'Dear Eloise I am writing to say...' whereas in mono it starts again.
Maker - the mono version has a longer intro and outtro.
Wishyouawish - there's birdsong at the beginning and end of the mono version, whereas there's a waterfall at the beginning of the stereo version and no bird song.
Try It - the stereo version is a much better edit, the mono version doesn't fade in as cleanly and the tape loop effects are more random.
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Post by irelandcalling4 on Jan 5, 2016 12:38:01 GMT
The Mono and Stereo mixes are interesting alright, and where available, I'd normally go for stereo. However, the Hollies catalogue 1964-1967 is a bit more problematic.
'Stay with the Hollies' is pretty good in stereo; it's not strictly voices in one and al instruments in other; for 2/3 of the album the stereo mix is quite good. For some tracks though the voices/instruments split is too wide.
'In the Hollies Style' isn't as good as the debut in stereo; the 'wide stereo' (correct? Voices in one, and instruments in other) can be quite annoying. Some of the tracks do sound good in this way, but most I'd probably go with the mono.
'Hollies' - excellent stereo mix! Much more evenly balanced and it sounds more or less proper stereo.
'Would you Believe' - on my ipod I've a mix of mono and stereo; some tracks sound good in stereo, and some sound better in mono than the 'wide stereo'.
'For Certain Because' - mostly quite well balanced stereo. 'It's You' and one or two others in wide stereo, but mostly, yes, it's a keeper for me in stereo.
'Evolution' - one of my favourite albums of all time; like 'Would you Believe' I've a mix of both mono and stereo. I would love a proper well balanced stereo mix.
'Butterfly' - well balanced stereo.
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Post by cameron on Jan 8, 2016 20:56:32 GMT
I always prefer stereo over mono as a rule. On my home Hi-Fi listening on vinyl, the mixes don't really bother me as you're sat in a room, absorbing the sound. But in the car, through headphones etc... the mixes bother me. To my ears, only For Certain Because and Butterfly have excellent consistent stereo mixes. I've spent a few months re-mixing Evolution. Sadly I can't upload it to my SoundCloud. i tried a tester track and it wouldn't let me as it's protected by copyright. Still got a few tracks to finish, maybe I'll find some way of uploading it for people to enjoy. Everyone seems to ask for a remix of that album. Who knows, perhaps the Hollies might authorise doing it properly one day with a remix from the original session tapes? We can only wait and see...
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Post by dirtyfaz on Jan 9, 2016 3:06:37 GMT
Put it up with some obscure non Hollies name. That may work.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2016 7:41:16 GMT
Put it up with some obscure non Hollies name. That may work. Unless there's some sort of audio recognition software. This has happened to me when I've uploaded things to YouTube and not mentioned song titles and artists names (it even automatically blocked a recent live TV performance by Chuck Berry where the performance was very different to the record!). |
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Post by gee on Jan 9, 2016 13:40:01 GMT
Hi guys - happy new year !
a few differences I recall
'Stay with...' - 'Talkin' Bout You' differs notably mono to stereo notably re the prominence of Nash's falsetto vocal which is featured on another stereo channel to the main vocals in stereo while in mono it's far less prominent plus calls of lines like; 'Let's shake !' etc differ stereo to mono
'Stay' we know differs stereo to mono most notably just prior to the guitar solo
'Little Lover' differs mono to stereo - it has a guitar intro only in stereo that is missing in mono and if I remember correctly verses are switched about
Nash's acoustic rhythm guitar - which they later pretend was never featured (!) - can be heard strumming away quite noticeably in the stereo version of the album on most tracks
'Hollies' (1965) - also had the basic stereo mix of; vocals (and odd lone instrument) on one channel / instruments on the other' in the later 'Reflection' and later BGO Records re-issues
'Lawdy Miss Clawdy' has an error by Clarke at the start of the instrumental break coming in too quickly on harmonica as the guitar solo commences (and someone yells; 'not yet !') in stereo that has been left in but carefully mixed out on the mono version
'Too Many People' has the explosion/breaking glass sound effect at the conclusion in mono missing in stereo
'So Lonely' has greater echo (I think) in mono to stereo tho' some feel it's vice versa...whatever they differ slightly re the echo !
'Down The Line' fades out faster in stereo - a final Clarke line of; 'oh baby I'm gonna move now...'(or something like that) can be heard on the fade in mono but not in stereo
The stereo version of 'That's My Desire' (a cover they loathed doing which topped the singles chart in South Africa in 1967 !) has far more prominent backing vocals by Hicks-Nash during the vocal bridge section - calls of; 'ba ba ba ba...' as Clarke sings; 'To sip a little glass of wine...' etc, these sound absurdly as loud as Clarke's voice in stereo but are correctly put far behind his voice as backup vocals on the mono version.
'Fortune Teller' has a deeper more dramatic echoing sound in mono - notably on the percussion - compared to the stereo version
'Would You Believe' - I have in an early 1966 mono version, but it states PMC 7008 and PCS 7008 in the bottom right hand corner of the album sleeve plus the 'Also available in stereo no. PCS 7008' at the top right hand side by the PMC 7008 number (it's the Parlophone LP release before The Beatles 'Revolver' PMC/PCS 7009)...so if the PCS 7008 stereo mix was not released until march 1967 EMI were nevertheless plugging it back in 1966 thus it's release must have been planned.
'For Certain Because...' - 'Clown' sounds deeper and more dramatic in mono to the stereo version
'Butterfly' - 'Dear Eloise' has full fadeout at the end in mono before Nash's concluding vocal compared to a mid fade Nash outro vocal coming in on the stereo version, and has a deeper sound on the vocal 'ba ba ba' lines during the instrumental break mid song in mono.
the mono mix has more sound effects on 'Wishyouawish' and these are featured again at the end in mono only - waterfall and birds singing in mono, just a waterfall intro in stereo - also the acoustic guitar receeds more notably in stereo to mono on 'Maker' while 'Postcard' has seagulls in different places stereo to mono !
'Try it' differs at the start, it 'warms up' in stereo with a fade in before the 'zooming' sounds begin while in mono the 'zooming' sounds just come crashing in and notably just prior to guitar solo stereo to mono - the guitar solo being featured more prominently in stereo - while the vocals remain constant in mono on 'Elevated Observations ?' but 'go walkabout' in stereo thus sound different overall (both 'Would You Belive' and 'Charlie And Fred' sound different somewhat due to the differing mixes)
'Butterfly' has differening effects on Nash's vocal notably at the end
'Hollies Sing Dylan' - I think the vocals on 'Times They Are A Changin' sound rather more forward in the mono mix, where as in stereo the guitar 'rains' over the vocals more, plus a few tracks sound a little more dramatic - notably 'I Shall Be Released' - in mono purely due to the respective stereo/mono mixing
hope this helps
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2016 13:51:50 GMT
Hi guys - happy new year ! a few differences I recall 'Stay with...' - 'Talkin' Bout You' differs notably mono to stereo notably re the prominence of Nash's falsetto vocal which is featured on another stereo channel to the main vocals in stereo while in mono it's far less prominent plus calls of lines like; 'Let's shake !' etc differ stereo to mono 'Stay' we know differs stereo to mono most notably just prior to the guitar solo 'Little Lover' differs mono to stereo - it has a guitar intro only in stereo that is missing in mono and if I remember correctly verses are switched about 'Hollies' (1965) - also had the basic stereo mix of; vocals (and odd lone instrument) on one channel / instruments on the other' in the later 'Reflection' and later BGO Records re-issues 'Lawdy Miss Clawdy' has an error by Clarke at the start of the instrumental break coming in too quickly on harmonica as the guitar solo commences (and someone yells; 'not yet !') in stereo that has been left in but carefully mixed out on the mono version 'Too Many People' has the explosion/breaking glass sound effect at the conclusion in mono missing in stereo 'So Lonely' has greater echo (I think) in mono to stereo tho' some feel it's vice versa...whatever they differ slightly re the echo ! 'Down The Line' fades out faster in stereo - a final Clarke line of; 'oh baby I'm gonna move now...'(or something like that) can be heard on the fade in mono but not in stereo 'Fortune Teller' has a deeper more dramatic echoing sound in mono - notably on the percussion - compared to the stereo version 'Would You Believe' - I have in an early 1966 mono version, but it states PMC 7008 and PCS 7008 in the bottom right hand corner of the album sleeve plus the 'Also available in stereo no. PCS 7008' at the top right hand side by the PMC 7008 number (it's the Parlophone LP release before The Beatles 'Revolver' PMC/PCS 7009)...so if the PCS 7008 stereo mix was not released until march 1967 EMI were nevertheless plugging it back in 1966 thus it's release must have been planned. 'For Certain Because...' - 'Clown' sounds deeper and more dramatic in mono to the stereo version 'Butterfly' - 'Dear Eloise' has full fadeout at the end in mono before Nash's concluding vocal compared to a mid fade Nash outro vocal coming in on the stereo version, and has a deeper sound on the vocal 'ba ba ba' lines during the instrumental break mid song in mono. the mono mix has more sound effects on 'Wishyouawish' and these are featured again at the end - waterfall and birds singing - also the acoustic guitar receeds more notably in stereo to mono on 'Maker' while 'Postcard' has seagulls in different places stereo to mono ! 'Try it' differs at the start, and just prior to guitar solo stereo to mono while the vocals remain constant in mono on 'Elevated Observations ?' but 'go walkabout' in stereo thus sound different overall (both 'Would You Belive' and 'Charlie And Fred' sound different somewhat due to the differing mixes) 'Butterfly' has differening effects on Nash's vocal notably at the end 'Hollies Sing Dylan' - I think the vocals on 'Times They Are A Changin' sound rather more forward in the mono mix, where as in stereo the guitar 'rains' over the vocals more, plus a few tracks sound a little more dramatic - notably 'I Shall Be Released' - in mono purely due to the respective stereo/mono mixing hope this helps I'm copying that before you delete it! ; ) |
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Post by gee on Jan 9, 2016 13:59:56 GMT
Ha ! - no that was some kind of odd problem my old computer had - things I posted later vanished somehow !
I have added a bit re the differences between 'That's My Desire' mono to stereo versions and put a bit more detail in re the 'Butterfly' tracks stereo to mono alternate aspects
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