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Post by irelandcalling4 on Jul 13, 2015 8:01:43 GMT
Hi All,
Well, what a week in Hollie-land!
Finally obtaining a copy of much sought after B-Side "Crossfire"; then the appearance of mythical "Marrakesh Express", and on Friday, the purchasing of 'Changin' Times' 5-CD set, complete with the 2007 version of 'Romany' (which I never had, I had the previous version) and the 2014 version of 'Out on the Road'.
My query is on 1969 single, "Sorry Suzanne" - the mix on the new set isn't the best; for some of it vocals in one channel, music in another; music does appear in the vocal channel once the song get's going. Overall, the mix isn't great - does anyone have an opinion on what the best mix of this single would be?
Also, on the song itself; following such artistic triumphs as 'For Certain Because', 'Evolution', 'Butterfly', and the 1968 singles (yes, including very pop oriented material like 'Jennifer Eccles') - what is the view on 'Suzanne'? I think it's a catchy little number, nothing too spectacular, I much prefer it's B-Side, the quite wonderful 'Not that way at all'. Initially, seeing his former band in the white suits, with 'Suzanne' as their first post-Nash single, perhaps Graham felt it wouldn't have been for him? I think they did rebound very successfully though, I love the Dylan and especially Sing Hollies albums.
Cheers for any input!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 8:50:29 GMT
Initially, seeing his former band in the white suits, with 'Suzanne' as their first post-Nash single, perhaps Graham felt it wouldn't have been for him? They were wearing suits and bow ties from mid 1968, apparently at Graham's suggestion. I think I prefer 'Sorry Suzanne' to both 'Jennifer Eccles' and 'Listen To Me' (probably my two least favourite recordings from 1968), though still not a patch on many of their other 1965-1971 singles. |
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Post by gee on Jul 13, 2015 10:35:10 GMT
The Ron Furmanek stereo mix of 'Sorry Suzanne' (on the USA '30th Anniversary Collection' set & also can be found as a bonus track on the Magic Records 'Hollies Sing Hollies') is my own favorite stereo version as it spreads both vocals and instruments out across the stereo channels
'I Can't Let Go' and 'Bus Stop' are another two where Ron Furmanek has the vocals & instruments spread out across the stereo channels, in each case I think they sound better overall than the very basic UK stereo versions with that; 'vocals one channel / 'instruments the other' (with an odd lone instrument often thrown on the vocal channel - sounding very odd indeed, especially when listening on headphones !) - tho' 'I Can't Let Go' sounds a bit 'ragged' and could do with a studio 'polish up'...
FOUR sixties Hollies albums (over 1964-67) and various other songs as late as 'Sorry Suzanne' in early 1969 (!) were plagued by that very cheap sounding stereo, as were some Beatles songs, Cliff/Shadows, and some other Merseybeat groups albums (Gerry & The Pacemakers, The Swinging Blue Jeans, The Fourmost, etc)
- thus a proper sonic overhaul and stereo update of those sixties Hollies albums etc, is badly required, but that costs money....
that was why a number of tracks on 'The Clarke Hicks Nash Years' CD set appeared in mono versions as EMI now dislike that very basic (cheap !) stereo sound.
EMI did 'centralise' the vocals on a few stereo tracks for the 2001 'Hollies Greatest Hits' 2CD - 'I'm Alive', 'Carrie Anne' were improved, while 'Very Last Day' and 'I've Got A Way of My Own' have both also benefited from centralised vocals on that set too.
they also centralised the vocals on 'Bus Stop' and 'Sorry Suzanne' using the basic UK stereo mixes, but I still think Ron Furmanek's mixes were better with proper spread out of the vocals and instrumentation.
Re the white suits & bow ties - Graham Nash suggested they try cabaret as an attempt to find a type of more mature audience - people who would actually listen to their music and didn't just scream all over the songs (something Nash particularly loathed - like John Lennon & George Harrison did as well)
A valid idea but It rather backfired as they discovered the 'supper club' were more interested in having a 'meal & chat' than listening to the group !
it mis-fired image wise too (The Beach Boys found likewise - compare 'Hollies Sing Dylan' and 'Beach Boys Greatest Hits' cover pics !) as they suddenly looked very 'establishment' if not out of step with the times completely just as the counter culture with 'Woodstock', 'Easy Rider' etc came along...
The Hollies found themselves singing 'Puff The Magic Dragon' & country songs like 'Dang Me' besides their pop hits so the cabaret venture, whilst well intentioned, proved to be a mis-step, and their later 'smart casual' image (on 'Hollies Greatest Vol 2' cover pic) was a far wiser move & much better look.
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Post by irelandcalling4 on Jul 13, 2015 11:21:27 GMT
Great information; thanks guys - I never knew about the 'supper club' aspect, and they were singing the likes of 'Puff the Magic Daragon'! That is all new to me.
The Stereo issue is one I noticed a lot when purchasing the Hollies albums; while some are very good ('Hollies' from 1965, and 'For Certain Because'), 'Evolution' and 'Would you Believe' sounded awful in stereo (vocals in one channel, instrumentation in another). A sound overhaul would be most welcome.
I have the Furmanek mixes from the 30th Anniversary Collection, and, I have the Magic Records edition of "Sings Hollies" - thanks for the tip that 'Suzanne' sounds much better there. As I found the Magic Edition too boomy, I've stuck with the EMI 1999 (?) edition of 'Sings Hollies', so haven't heard the Magic version of 'Suzanne' in a while.
I must get the 2001 Greatest Hits; as you mentioned tracks like "I'm Alive" and "Carrie Anne" sound better there.
One last query; the 1972 "Greatest Vol.2" - the cover picture, is that from '72? Clarke looks a dang sight older on it than he does on the other 1971/1972 pictures I've seen.
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Post by cameron on Jul 13, 2015 11:21:29 GMT
It has been a busy month for Hollies fans with the book, CD boxset and the leak of the mythical 'Marrakesh Express'. You find that being a Hollies fan; nothing for months on end and then suddenly things come along as a nice surprise. 'Sorry Suzanne' was originally mixed to mono and released as a single in 1969. I believe it was given a stereo mix at the same time, which was shelved for future inclusion on a greatest hits package. This would save time/costs at a later date if a stereo mix was needed. However, it was one of those terrible "vocals on the left, everything else on the right" mixes. It eventually saw release in the UK on "Hollies Greatest, Vol. 2" in 1971. This mix was subsequently used for all further LP and CD releases up until around 1999/2000 when someone decided, in an effort to improve the stereo mixes on a non-existent budget, to simply half fold-down the mix to give it a more monaural sound, but retaining a bit of a stereo field. Sadly, these mixes have plagued releases ever since, but Hollies LTD and/or Warners are not allowing time for the tracks to be remixed properly from the session tapes. For the non-UK listener, as Gee points out, it was remixed by Ron Furmanek in 1993. His mixes drew very mixed reactions at the time, including from the Hollies themselves who didn't want him "re-writing history" whereas other saw it as improving the tracks. Those opposed later ironically gave the green light to that AWFUL stereo remix of King Midas In Reverse that was a "selling point" to buying 'Midas Touch'. Personally, I think Ron had very good intentions and prefer some of his mixes to the originals, but they were badly let down by the mastering - too much bass, too much trebble and some tracks are badly distorted. His mix of 'Sorry Suzanne' is very well balanced, certainly one of the better mixes on the compilation and the best way to hear the track, IMO. There's even a nice extract of session chatter at the start as Ron Richards mis-pronounced "Suzanne" as "Susan" and the Hollies comically correct him. I agree with gee completely, it's time that the Hollies' back catalogue received a proper sonic overhaul. The latest 2003 remasters are now 12 years old and the album remasters date back to 1999 and were simple transfers from the analogue master tape to digital, with very little fettling in the process. Albums like 'Evolution' are in DESPERATE need of a remix (like George Martin did for the Beatles' 'Help!' and 'Rubber Soul' albums in 1986), as both the original mono and stereo mixes are "muddy" sounding, even on the original LP. But alas, that takes time, and time is money. While ever it's down to 'Hollies LTD' without the limitless budget from the record company, I don't think that we will ever see it done. In the meantime, the Hollies out of print and mostly unavailable back catalogue is being stopped from gaining the wider attention that it deserves, simply because people can't access it. |
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Post by cameron on Jul 13, 2015 11:23:15 GMT
Forgot to add, the mono mix is something of a rarity in itself now. Last available officially on "The Hollies At Abbey Road 1966-1970" in 1997. Also, you guessed it, out of print.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 11:23:27 GMT
The Americans seemed to get the hang of stereo mixing much earlier (listen to the Elvis or Everly Brothers recordings from 1960 onwards for example)...
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Post by irelandcalling4 on Jul 13, 2015 11:25:20 GMT
PS Peter, 'Listen to Me' and 'Jennifer Eccles' are two of my favourite Hollies pop songs; I guess showcasing a different side of the band to the other excellent artistic side highlighted by possibly my favourite track of them all, 'Kind Midas'!
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Post by irelandcalling4 on Jul 13, 2015 11:30:34 GMT
Thanks for that Cameron; you mentioned Furmanek's awful stereo remix of 'King Midas' - may I ask, what would the best version be; is the stereo version on the 'Clarke, Hicks and Nash Years' set different to the Furmanek mix?
(I'm a complete newbie to all the different mixes on different Hits compilations or otherwise, forgive the obvious neophyte questioning!)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 11:31:06 GMT
PS Peter, 'Listen to Me' and 'Jennifer Eccles' are two of my favourite Hollies pop songs; I guess showcasing a different side of the band to the other excellent artistic side highlighted by possibly my favourite track of them all, 'Kind Midas'! Probably my favourite two 1968 tracks are 'Open Up Your Eyes' and 'Do The Best You Can'... When I first saw The Hollies in 1987 I shouted out "Do the best you can!", to which Tony replied "We are!"...  |
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Post by gee on Jul 13, 2015 13:33:50 GMT
The 'Hollies Greatest Vol 2' cover photo probably dates from between 'Confessions of The Mind' and 'Distant Light' period - the best way to tell is Bobby's hairpiece (!) - 'sensible' blonde (his old natural colour) and reasonable length - why didn't he stick with it ? (then going 'grey' over time)
his hair got longer over the Rickfors Hollies period 1972-73 before....well look at 'Hollies' (1974) cover !
Allan looks a bit older but is not yet into his 'Donny Osmond' look (jeez) of all white suit (as in 'Distant Light' innersleeve pics) while Terry's hair looks a bit shorter than on 'Confessions' inner pics (& related) but I'd guess it's circa later 1970/ early 1971 - the album came out in March 1972 (during the Rickfors Hollies era) so must have been taken before Clarkey's departure in December 1971
I've been told - by Simon I think it was - that Ron Furmanek did a 'new' stereo mix of 'King Midas...' that Graham Nash really loved - but The Hollies (you guessed it) were 'cool' to it...and duly vetoed it's use !
apparently Nash told Furmanek he could see now WHY he left the band...
I'd say the current best stereo version of Midas is the one used on 'Greatest Hits' 2003 set (& that is on 'Clarke, Hicks, Nash Years' too) minus the odd extra drumbeat they later had Paul Hicks add - it starts with Nash on one channel, then Nash-Clarke...but they quickly move to mid position for the rest of the song
It's interesting to GO BACK to the original mono vinyl singles too (of Hollies, Beatles, Shadows, Cliff/Shadows etc) as in each case they sound different to the albums & CDs that came along after...over time the recordings of those hit songs have been 'tweaked about' quite alot and the actual singles (often quite a bit more powerful) can now be quite an eye opener
'It's You' mono 'B' side of 'Stop Stop Stop' has never sounded as powering and strident as that Parlophone 7 inch single, nor has 'All The World is Love' either...
a latter day MONO rarity surprisingly was 'Mad Professor Blyth' (1970) which was 'B' side to 'I Can't Tell The Bottom From The Top' - most issues of that on 'Other Side of...' LP and on CD were always in stereo ( a mono version may now be out but without going through my Hollies collection I'm not 100% sure offhand)
The mono 'Hollies Sing Dylan' (PMC 7078) is quite rare now too, never 'officially' appearing on CD so far (EMI made a pressing error circa 1970-73 putting a stereo side one with a mono side two - I have a copy of that - listed as stereo PCS 7078 !)
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Post by irelandcalling4 on Jul 13, 2015 13:57:02 GMT
'Open up your Eyes' is excellent, agreed there Peter, as is 'Do the Best you Can'. Every track from the 1968 sessions actually!
Gee, quick question; the album referred to: 'Greatest Hits' 2001 set (& that is on 'Clarke, Hicks, Nash Years' too) - it's not the album with the mostly white cover (though I'm thinking that was released 2003), it is a 47 track double CD methinks.
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Post by gee on Jul 13, 2015 17:35:21 GMT
Sorry ! - that was a typing error (now corrected), it was 2003 and the 'clouds' white cover 2CD set (Myself & Tony Marsden helped Tim Chacksfield do that set for EMI)
Originally we wanted to put the tracks in the order of release but EMI did the 'jumbled up' way due to CD playing times (they told us)
The set reached No.21 in the UK album chart.
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Post by cameron on Jul 13, 2015 18:51:19 GMT
There's a bit of confusion here over the stereo mix of 'King Midas In Reverse'. There are three known mixes of it: the original mono mix (by far the best), the original stereo mix (vocals in the left, everything else in the other to start with), and an awful 2010 stereo remix done without Graham Nash or Allan Clarke's permission on the 'Midas Touch' compilation. As Gee points out, Ron Furmanek's mix was vetoed by the Hollies, along with a new mix for 'Carrie Anne'. I've never heard his mix of 'Midas', but apparently he worked really hard on it as he had to manually sync up two four track tapes to mix it. As EMI/Abbey Road were very slow to get an 8-track tape machine, bands started recording on two four tracks and syncing them to play together so they had eight tracks to use. This would only really work if the song was finished and mixed the same day as it's notoriously difficult to get two tape machines to play in sync - in doing it the same day, the tape machines would already be set up correctly. The Beatles never quite managed it (they tried it for 'Only A Northern Song' and it didn't work, so the basic mono mixdown was used on the stereo LP as they couldn't get the tapes to re-sync when it came to doing the stereo mix several months later) but that's how the Hollies created 'King Midas'.
Ron Furmanek's version allegedly had the orchestration swirling around, adding to the "psychedelic" vibe of the song. Graham reported to have loved it and saw it as an improvement on the original. Curiously, the stereo mix didn't appear until nearly a year after the single was released on 'Hollies' Greatest' (which the stereo version has very poor mastering, with a weak, bass-less sound and an inbalance in the stereo mix) and Graham was mad at the time as he didn't want his vocals double tracked on the first verse, but here they appeared, double tracked, in the stereo mix.
The original mono single is the best. As Gee says, it packs more punch and everything sounds a bit clearer. It's also got those single track vocals from Graham at the start. It has only to my knowledge ever been officially released on CD on the 'Hollies At Abbey Road: 1966-1970' CD.
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Post by dirtyfaz on Jul 14, 2015 2:55:53 GMT
My understanding is that the mix of King Midas on the 30th Anniversary disc wasn't mixed by Ron but it had the common stereo mix. Same with Carrie Anne.
The vocals on the vocal intro in mono and stereo are different. Mono single tracked and stereo double tracked. My understanding is that Ron created the mono single track vocal intro so as to make it sound more like the 45. That's the one the Hollies vetoed and as far as I'm aware still hasn't seen daylight.
Interestingly many of Ron's mixes have been used by compilers ever since the 30th Anniversary disc.
We have to thank Ron for making available many many B sides in stereo for the first time. We have to remember that the Hollies up to the Rickfors era were the only ones Ron did a remix on. Sure he has had some critisim for a couple of his mixes but to be fair to the guy you have to understand what tapes he had to work with in the first place.
Ron has remixed many many tracks by many different artist and he has rarely got it wrong.
Ron's mix of Sorry Suzanne is the best and his doesn't have the loud drumming (maybe overdub) after Tony's solo. I always found that drum section off putting.
Love his mix of I Can't Let Go as well fixing the bit of Tony's solo that goes to mono in the stereo version.
Haven't got my Changin' Times set yet but has been shipped end of last week and it usually takes 7/10 days to get to Australia. I am looking forward to the OOTR 2014 remasters.
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