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Post by madprofessorblyth on Nov 18, 2018 4:41:16 GMT
A good while back I purchased a CD on Parlophone of the Hollies called 10 Great Songs that is exactly as it is called - a very plain little cheap budget release - but I bought it because I saw it in person and I never leave something behind of the Hollies if I can find it in person, if I don't own it already (pretty scarce in the US).
Anyway, I decided to start listening to it mostly today of all days - as when I'm listening to the Hollies I usually go for the Furmanek 30th anniversary set now and all - but I had found a Steve Hoffman thread (not a member - just occasional viewer) and I saw a nice long thread about the Furmanek article in the tour book and had a lot of great comments with info I didn't know - such as a different mix of I Can't Tell The Bottom From The Top on The Long Road Home box and all - so I went through all my Hollies CDs to see if I had any discs with any odd different mixes or things like that, which would stick out.
Interestingly I did!!
I noticed that it seems to be full of a few different mixes. If anyone else have this release I'd really like to have input to see if I'm just crazy or not - I can post videos on YouTube using the files from them however if need be.
They all sound roughly the same as existing previous remasters for the most part - but two in particular struck me - Look Through Any Window is stereo - after comparison I'm 100% confident it is the Furmanek mix but it's slightly different mastering - I had always thought previously that the Furmanek remixes never surfaced on other releases besides the one set but when listening side by side, it's exactly the same mix. Every other file I have of the song from my CDs have the guitar intro panned left but only the 30th anniversary and this one have everything middle and the vocals panned left and right.
The other I noticed a huge difference on was He Ain't Heavy - I can't really tell if this is an alternate mix or if they've just swapped the stereo channels - sounds like the same panning as on the regular version but just...on the other sides, basically. As with the other track, this is the only release I own where this takes place.
And I bought this at a major store chain retailer - brand new and sealed, so I know it's not a bootleg or anything like that. I can't begin to explain this enigma. If anyone can help me sort this out I'd really appreciate it!
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Post by madprofessorblyth on Nov 18, 2018 4:45:50 GMT
I can say that for all of the tracks on it, they're definitely different masters - for lack of better terms, a bit more muddy and bass-y - it kind of works though because I think many could agree quite a few Hollies remasters just have to much shine and sound bright. It's only those two tracks where there's noticeable difference with mixes.
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Post by moorlock2003 on Nov 19, 2018 18:27:45 GMT
Ron's mix of Look Through Any Window left some fans aghast, with the harmony vocals overpowering the lead. I don't like it and never listen to it.
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Post by madprofessorblyth on Nov 20, 2018 0:56:00 GMT
Ron's mix of Look Through Any Window left some fans aghast, with the harmony vocals overpowering the lead. I don't like it and never listen to it. Indeed. I do personally kind of like having it as there's no true stereo mix for the song besides it (Instruments left and vocals right to me is in stereo sound, but not a proper stereo mix) - and I like hearing Allan by himself but with the other two's voices also audible - so to each their own. But as it is truly this controversial, I find it hard to believe they would use it on a compilation like this - especially as I don't believe Furmanek's mixes were ever reissued after that 30th anniversary set. The liner notes of the '10 Great Songs' comp list it as "Digital Remaster copyright 2003" so perhaps this was a mix-up? I can say for sure by listening that they've all been mastered again on top of what was already existing, as all of the songs sound softer than their equals on other Hollies releases. It sounds like the same mix on both the 30th anniversary compilation and 10 Great Songs is on the Clarke Hicks Nash set, so perhaps this is the 2003 remaster after all? I'd have to pull out the set and try to see the copyright info on LTAW inside of that one - perhaps either I am mistaken, or perhaps the people responsible for these releases are the ones who have been mistaken? I am extremely conflicted and confused...! On all of my Hollies CDs with the song, it seems to be either this mix (with the vocals separate and instruments middle) or the version with instruments left and vocals right and has the "ooooh's" present on the ending. |
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Post by dirtyfaz on Nov 20, 2018 4:03:49 GMT
Ron's mixes appear randomly all over the place on compilations. My guess someone at EMI(or Hollies organisation) pulls the wrong tape out of the archives.
Ron didn't have much to work with re LTAW as that is one of the few Hollies session tapes that were destroyed. In the 71 someone at EMI did a mix of the single version but the vocals were a little out of balance compared to the original 45. The story is probably somewhere in this forum. My recollection is that because the original tapes were gone all Ron had to work with was this version. If you listen closely to the original 45 that Clarke vocal is there just buried way in the mix. Whoever did the 71 mix certainly got the balance wrong.
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Post by rokinrobinoflocksley on Nov 20, 2018 12:54:56 GMT
Well, with all these 'digitally extracted stereo' (mono to stereo) re-creations/remixes coming out, it shouldn't be too long before someone will apply these techniques to Hollies tracks. The sky is the limit, just imagine, ha...
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Post by cameron on Nov 20, 2018 14:12:30 GMT
dirtyfaz is right, the original session tape for 'Look Through Any Window' was erased in 1971. EMI proposed an archive clearance, which saw many of the multi-tracks of 'transient' bands like Freddie & The Dreamers, Gerry And The Pacemakers and Herman's Hermits get a lot of their tapes wiped. Some early Hollies recordings were on the list to be deleted, but it seems that their continued popularity in 1970/1 saved a lot of the tapes. Sadly, the LTAW session slipped through the net and was lost forever. Not before engineers were invited to have a play with said tapes before their deletion. Here's where some of the alternative mixes come into play.
The good news is, that because Hollies LTD formed in 1966 and took control away form EMI, they own their own tapes from 'Bus Stop' onwards, so all of this material survives in multitrack form, plus the vast majority of what went before then.
Ron's mixes turn up everywhere. Magic Records seemed to use a lot of them for their bonus tracks. I like his mixes for the most part, but the '30th Anniversary Collection' was hideously overcooked in the final mastering stage. Compare his work on 'Rarities' and you'll see that it wasn't Ron's fault, which I'm happy that he finally gets to explain in the 2018 Hollies Tour Book.
I've had a play with the digitally extracted stereo techniques, and have so far remixed most of 'Evolution' to proper stereo, using only the original stereo mix. Here's one I did for 'Stop Right There':
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Post by madprofessorblyth on Nov 20, 2018 19:29:13 GMT
Thanks for the comments, guys - really appreciate it. I knew the LTAW multitracks were tossed but I wasn't quite sure the reason or circumstances about it. I completely agree Cameron, Ron's work on the 30th ann. set was really great, and it's quite unfortunate whoever attempted to properly master them ultimately failed so miserably.
I've been trying to figure out how to do these "digitally extracted stereo" and/or "spectral editing" but every time I've tried I ultimately fail... Your work there sounds fab, Cameron, if you ever are willing to share how you do them, I'd love to know and give it a proper shot! I really want to work on material by another favorite group of mine, the Move, who unfortunately have most of their material (and fab singles) only available in mono or on rare LPs in fake stereo.
Ultimately, I'm glad to know Ron's mixes live on in newer releases... though I'm still quite confused as to how this cheap-o CD had He Ain't Heavy with reversed channels, haha!
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Post by cameron on Nov 20, 2018 21:54:44 GMT
Digitally extracting stereo is easy in theory, but in practice takes a lot of faffing about to make it work properly. You basically isolate certain frequencies (such as a solo guitar line, solo drum sound etc...) and extract that frequency from the mix. I'll give you an example:
For 'Then The Heartaches Begin', the guitar starts on it's own in the left channel. Keeping the left channel mono as a separate track and muting the right channel (which contains the vocals), I can highlight the solo guitar and take a noise sample of it. Duplicating the left channel to two mono tracks, I can remove the guitar frequencies from one track, but not the other. With the other track, I reverse this to isolate the guitar rather than remove it. If done correctly, you end up with drums and bass in one channel, and guitar in the other. I then remove the bass from the vocals, make a third copy of the left channel and cut all the frequencies bar the bass to keep the bass mono, pan isolated drums left, isolated guitar right, and keep bass and vocals centralised in the mix. Of course, just saying that makes it sound easy, but the trick is to not remove too much information from the audio to get the cleanest sound possible, often at the expense of allowing other parts to leak back into the mix. Usually the sound has altered enough to give the illusion of clear channel separation and it creates a realistic stereo mix. There's a fair amount of tweaking to the EQ involved too, which is where you have to know at what frequency certain sounds usually appear.
You can hear the result here:
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Post by cameron on Nov 20, 2018 21:57:36 GMT
Have you not bagged the deluxe edition of the Move's debut album with the second disc of stereo remixes? I think it came out in 2006. These are absolutely amazing. I rarely listen to the monos any more now. The sonic clarity is absolutely amazing. Sadly not all the multi-tracks could be located, but they did find most of them. I think they are about two songs short of the full album and one or two of the singles are missing the original multi-tracks.
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Post by madprofessorblyth on Nov 21, 2018 0:27:25 GMT
Digitally extracting stereo is easy in theory, but in practice takes a lot of faffing about to make it work properly. You basically isolate certain frequencies (such as a solo guitar line, solo drum sound etc...) and extract that frequency from the mix. I'll give you an example: For 'Then The Heartaches Begin', the guitar starts on it's own in the left channel. Keeping the left channel mono as a separate track and muting the right channel (which contains the vocals), I can highlight the solo guitar and take a noise sample of it. Duplicating the left channel to two mono tracks, I can remove the guitar frequencies from one track, but not the other. With the other track, I reverse this to isolate the guitar rather than remove it. If done correctly, you end up with drums and bass in one channel, and guitar in the other. I then remove the bass from the vocals, make a third copy of the left channel and cut all the frequencies bar the bass to keep the bass mono, pan isolated drums left, isolated guitar right, and keep bass and vocals centralised in the mix. Of course, just saying that makes it sound easy, but the trick is to not remove too much information from the audio to get the cleanest sound possible, often at the expense of allowing other parts to leak back into the mix. Usually the sound has altered enough to give the illusion of clear channel separation and it creates a realistic stereo mix. There's a fair amount of tweaking to the EQ involved too, which is where you have to know at what frequency certain sounds usually appear. You can hear the result here: Wow, that is incredible! Thank you so much for explaining, this is really fascinating stuff! I look forward to giving this all a shot tonight hopefully with good results...!  |
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Post by madprofessorblyth on Nov 21, 2018 0:33:08 GMT
Have you not bagged the deluxe edition of the Move's debut album with the second disc of stereo remixes? I think it came out in 2006. These are absolutely amazing. I rarely listen to the monos any more now. The sonic clarity is absolutely amazing. Sadly not all the multi-tracks could be located, but they did find most of them. I think they are about two songs short of the full album and one or two of the singles are missing the original multi-tracks. Unfortunately I have not. That's really good to know, I'll definitely be on the look out! I know there's one from 2016 or so of the album that's 3 discs (on the Esoteric Recordings label) that says it has a disc of stereo mixes but per what I can find, some are stereo mixes and some are outtakes/demos that are in stereo in place of, or in addition, to the final versions. The song I'm looking forward to attempting most to try and make a mix of is Fire Brigade, as there's no officially released version of it in stereo whatsoever (at least that isn't "electronically simulated stereo"). Interestingly, the "Early Piano Version/Rough Mix" of the song on the Anthology 1966-1972 box set is in beautiful stereo, and the instrumental version which is a bonus track on the Flowers In The Rain E.P. CD from 2006 also has a fab stereo mix (which had everything in the song, including the backing vocals - except for the lead vocal) - so unless something has happened to the multitrack for that one roughly in the past 10 years, I can't see why one hasn't been created... |
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Post by cameron on Nov 21, 2018 0:58:24 GMT
Well my mind is blown, this is not on YouTube! But several home made stereo remixes are. Fire Brigade exists in perfect true full stereo on the 2007 2-CD Salvo copy of the Move's debut that I have in my hands here. I think the newer 3CD version has an identical disc one and two, but has the bonus disc of BBC tracks and Anthology outtakes and alternative mixes. Since I already have those, I didn't get the 3CD set when it was released.
The debut album was re-imagined in full stereo for this release and sounds absolutely STUNNING! This is close to how the Move imagined it, as the original album master tapes were famously stolen when the album was nearing completion in 1968. A couple of the previously unreleased tracks here are from a damaged session tape that was unplayable back in 1968, but thanks to modern technology, has been repaired now. In full stereo you have:
1. Move Intro (previously unreleased)
2. Move (previously unreleased)
3. Cherry Blossom Clinic
4. Fire Brigade
5. Kilroy Was Here
6. Here We Go Around The Lemon Tree
7. Weekend
8. Zing Went The Strings Of My Heart
9. Don't Throw Stones At Me (previously unreleased)
10. Mist On A Monday Morning
11. Vote For Me (alternative take)
12. Night Of Fear
13. The Girl Outside (alternative take)
14. Walk Upon The Water
15. Useless Information
16. Flowers In The Rain
Fire Brigade has mono lead vocals, mono drums, mono bass but with percussion panned right, Roy's lead guitar in the left channel and the backing vocals spread over both channels.
The only cop-out is Walk Upon The Water, which only features the backwards drum in the middle eight section in stereo, panning extreme left and right - the whole track is mono otherwise. But a much cleaner mono mix than the original mono mix on disc one of the set.
I believe they found the missing four track session tapes for all the above tracks, but no pre-bounce tapes, hence some of the slightly odd stereo mixes as certain small elements bagged a whole track on the multitrack to themselves as final overdubs. For me, Flowers In The Rain, Night Of Fear and Cherry Blossom Clinic especially absolutely come to life in stereo. They did a fabulous job of all the mixes here. IMO, the alternative takes of Vote For Me and The Girl Outside are better than the final versions that ended up on the original album.
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Post by madprofessorblyth on Nov 21, 2018 2:48:19 GMT
Holy mother of god, I had no idea!! Indeed, there's a few ones on YouTube but I was disappointed to know they all weren't real and I've been trying to find any release, even bootleg, that may have some unused or thrown out stereo mix - I figured by 1968 a proper stereo mix isn't much to ask for. I'm so ecstatic to know that exists! I will have to see if the newer edition also has that - though perhaps I'll have to just get the 3CD and that Salvo one in addition you have... unfortunately, even though they're one of my favorite groups now, I haven't collected them on CD until this month - usually collecting up one artist at a time (was doing Hollies and Bowie at the moment) and now I'm working on getting the full Move catalogue... I cannot wait to hear an official stereo mix of Fire Brigade - not to mention Kilroy Was Here, etc; - I literally can't contain my excitement! Thank you for your excellent descriptions, I'll be making note of all of this!!
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