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Post by cameron on Jun 23, 2018 23:02:31 GMT
As promised, my new remix of "Marrakesh Express", synced up with Graham's 1968 solo demo for the vocals. It's a much clearer mix than the previous one. Enjoy! Here's a link to a website that's streaming complete versions of all tracks that will feature on the forthcoming "Over The Years" compilation, on June 29th. Three Hollies-era tracks are included: "Marrakesh Express", "Man With No Expression (Horses Through A Rainstorm)" and "Teach Your Children", all recorded before Graham left the Hollies on December 8th, 1968. www.npr.org/2018/06/21/621319845/first-listen-graham-nash-over-the-years?t=1529622673497
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Post by rokinrobinoflocksley on Jun 24, 2018 0:48:20 GMT
Thanks Cameron!! BUT it's been blocked on copyright grounds. That was a fast block too, within an hour of posting, ugh...
Any other way to get it to us?
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Post by cameron on Jun 24, 2018 8:55:49 GMT
How frustrating! Rhino have blocked it for using Graham Nash's solo demo in the recording. I'm trying to re-word the title to see if I can re-upload it. Technically speaking, they can't block it as I've severely altered what's officially available to the point where it becomes a sample. But disputes aren't settled by YouTube, but by the copyright holder themselves. So I think I'll be against a brick wall there. Anyway, looks like I've got away with it again:
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Post by cameron on Jun 24, 2018 8:59:05 GMT
I think the key word that sparked the sensor was "1968 Demo" as that shares the title with Graham's upcoming release
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2018 11:51:25 GMT
I think the key word that sparked the sensor was "1968 Demo" as that shares the title with Graham's upcoming release Unfortunately blocked again.
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Post by cameron on Jun 24, 2018 12:01:34 GMT
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Post by rokinrobinoflocksley on Jun 24, 2018 12:39:03 GMT
Thanks Cameron! Fabulous! (I would suggest though that perhaps Graham's vocal might need to be a tad louder in the mix?)
Right! Now we need to round up Allan Clarke to add a harmony vocal! (or someone who sounds like him, and a Tony ringer too, ha...)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2018 12:53:02 GMT
Thanks Cameron, this is wonderful!
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Post by gee on Jun 24, 2018 17:55:58 GMT
Excellent work Cameron !
Had it been put out as a Hollies song I rather doubt that Allan or Tony would have sung on it - more likely if any additional vocal(s) were used at all here then it is far more probable that Graham would have added his own backup or harmony voice behind his lead vocal
- think 'Fifi','Clown','Tell Me To My Face', 'Stop Right There', 'Everything is Sunshine','Maker', 'Butterfly' or 'Relax' etc
mostly the solo balladeer Nash sang alone with just his own voice backing him up as also did Terry Sylvester later on 'Cable Car', 'Pull Down The Blind', 'Pick Up The Pieces', 'Mr. Heartbreaker' etc
EMI / Universal should think seriously about putting together this track as Cameron has done - hopefully Ron Furmanek may have done something along these lines
Hollies fans would LOVE this....and Mr. Nash would probably have a change of heart re just how 'unsuccessful' his Hollies version of 'Marrakesh' was...!
I already love it as much as the famous CSN version, it has that intimacy and carefree 'singalong' style of Nash sixties Hollies solo ballad tracks - and it emerges in a fresh light at this slower pace, done more 'singer/songwriter' style minus Steve Stills organ fills or obligatory harmonies
- I'm NOT knocking the faster and (most ironic) far MORE 'commercial' sounding CSN hit single version at all...just getting a new perspective on a classic song
I feel that producer Ron Richards was wrong and Nash was right about it, while maybe in truth by then Allan was getting a bit peeved re Nash's solo style coming more into play on Hollies tracks hence his feeling it wasn't right for the group to do ?
whatever, Bobby Elliott said he loved the song and Tony Hicks was quite happy to play on it...!
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Post by rokinrobinoflocksley on Jun 24, 2018 19:29:02 GMT
Cameron, how about working up another version to include the two sections of "all aboard the train"? The chords are there on the backing track in other locations, you'd just have to fly them in to match Graham's vocal. Cheers n chips...
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Post by cameron on Jun 24, 2018 20:01:39 GMT
Cameron, how about working up another version to include the two sections of "all aboard the train"? The chords are there on the backing track in other locations, you'd just have to fly them in to match Graham's vocal. Cheers n chips... Sadly the phrasing just doesn't fit. Graham must have re-arranged the song once in the studio. It seems a bit of a poor show to me that this backing track was all that emerged from a four hour session! So the other Hollies must have stuck their two-penneth in and changed it. The solo demo barely fits with the Hollies' backing track if I'm honest. It took HOURS of playing about with the timing and phrasing to get it all to fit, and no matter how I tried, the "all aboard the train" section just doesn't fit. It's also odd how the Hollies' instrumental version goes on for a further minute after the ending of Graham's solo version! But it's that same end chorus section repeated over and over again.
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Post by cameron on Jun 24, 2018 20:04:42 GMT
Thanks Cameron! Fabulous! (I would suggest though that perhaps Graham's vocal might need to be a tad louder in the mix?) Right! Now we need to round up Allan Clarke to add a harmony vocal! (or someone who sounds like him, and a Tony ringer too, ha...) I've turned the vocal down slightly to hide the out-of-sync guitar remnants from Graham's solo demo. It was either that or hit the frequency remover harder like I did with my last sync of this with Crosby & Nash's 1969 demo, which produces a 'robotic' sounding voice. Sadly the Hollies never performed this track live, maybe it was a sore point! They did do "Teach Your Children" several times. I've tried pairing a great 1990s concert performance with Graham's 1968 solo demo, but again, the phrasing is all wrong and doesn't fit in the slightest. You can hear the Hollies' version here, with Alan Coates on high harmony, who did sound very much like Graham!
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Post by cameron on Jun 24, 2018 20:08:43 GMT
Hollies fans would LOVE this....and Mr. Nash would probably have a change of heart re just how 'unsuccessful' his Hollies version of 'Marrakesh' was...! Sadly not, just last week he did an interview and premiered his 1968 demo, adding that he hopes that the Hollies' version "never ever ever sees the light of day, it's an abomination!". That's why I decided to put this demo together and get it out there, I don't think we're ever going to get it officially. Although I know that "Hollies LTD" is Bobby, Tony and Allan, so they may have the final say now that Graham sold his share. We know they already over-ruled Graham when they vetoed Ron Furmanek's remix of "King Midas", which apparently Graham really pushed for. So who knows, time will tell...
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Post by madprofessorblyth on Jun 25, 2018 0:53:39 GMT
Absolutely love this. I love that SoundCloud and had no idea you were the one behind the curtain on it. I say 'bravo' and I thank you *immensely!*
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Post by gee on Jun 25, 2018 10:16:53 GMT
Much as I rate him highly Graham Nash is rather good at going with the flow of popular 'accepted view' attitudes as it were I have noticed over the years...look how now he always mega praises up The Beatles, when once back then he 'had a go' back at them !
- by his own admission (now) I recall there was a time when he FIRMLY 'distanced' himself from all things Hollies probably over reacting at some snooty early seventies music critics seeing them as a 'mere pop group' when he was of course now a 'serious' Rock musician in CSNY - which was ironic as later on by the late 80's CSN were unfairly dismissed as a 'joke' by UK critics getting far more flak than The Hollies ever received !
however later times have changed I think especially after The Hollies were finally also inducted into that USA Rock and Roll Hall of Fame giving them more credibility reputation wise, resulting in a book on them at last, several EMI / Universal CD sets, that 'Look Through Any Window' DVD, a BBC Radio History of...show
....and of course duly making Nash a 'double inductee' alongside his CSNY bandmates for both that group and their original sixties bands too, since when Nash it appears has come to be happier to embrace all of his musical career and can enjoy his being a 'Hollie' like the Byrds / Springfield kuedos of his pals
IF there was growing public interest in that 'lost' Hollies version of Marrakesh Express and Tony & Bobby (Allan is a nominal 'sleeping partner' member of The Hollies Limited now I believe) gave the green light to say Ron Furmanek to finish it off with any guide vocal....and it then became a fav of Hollies fans, I would not be surprised to find Graham very likely start saying something like;
'See I was right all along and Ron was wrong about it...!'
while that Hollies recording probably has painful or bitter memories for Graham as it more than anything saw him 'not on the same page' with Allan or Ron Richards at least...and obviously was on an artistic level a major part of him finally making the break, hence CSN quickly recorded it
Nash may indeed openly detest that unfinished Hollies version now, BUT if it ever proved to be popular with Hollies fans I do wonder if he'd be less so critical of it...??
one other point, Nash has now made a few mentions of The Hollies 1968 version of 'Marrakesh Express' - duly venting his hopes it will NEVER see light of day etc - however it might be that Nash has an inkling the 1968 version could be on the cards for an eventual release, and is therefore actually bringing the song to public attention (many were probably never aware The Hollies ever recorded it) thus creating an anticipation for the Hollies version (plus also covering his own back if reaction were negative to it) as he could be seen to be building up public interest in it by drawing our attention to it as he's done a few times now even by apparently being derogative about it
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Post by cameron on Jun 25, 2018 14:08:35 GMT
one other point, Nash has now made a few mentions of The Hollies 1968 version of 'Marrakesh Express' - duly venting his hopes it will NEVER see light of day etc - however it might be that Nash has an inkling the 1968 version could be on the cards for an eventual release, and is therefore actually bringing the song to public attention (many were probably never aware The Hollies ever recorded it) thus creating an anticipation for the Hollies version (plus also covering his own back if reaction were negative to it) as he could be seen to be building up public interest in it by drawing our attention to it as he's done a few times now even by apparently being derogative about it I never considered that. Though I've always thought what you see is what you get with Graham, none of this marketing BS and causing drama. Even I can admit that the Hollies' version is rubbish, BUT it's historically significant and fantastic to have something "new" from them from this era that we all love so much. I don't even think "Marrakesh Express" is a very good song. It's firmly in the mould of "Postcard" and "Wishyouawish" - that kind of carefree dainty little number that fills out the LP. I'm very surprised that it was a hit in the US. It did nothing in the UK, who by 1969 had accepted a much more mature view of music, as had the Hollies, who were about to release "He Ain't Heavy..." at the time. The timing of Graham's solo demo set is quite poignant. If the Hollies are clever about it, they should be issuing their set in response, carrying their early version of "Marrakesh Express" to capitalise on the success of Graham's CD. Anything CSNY related is big news. Graham's last CSNY archival project, "Live in 1974" was a huge success, even sold in supermarkets here in the UK! I daresay that their archival material is more popular than any of their new solo albums. Back to "Marrakesh Express", when I finally heard it, I couldn't shake the feeling of awe and shock that I was finally hearing this legendary track. It's only in the years after that I've been able to step back as a fan and assess it for what it is critically. Initially, fans just want to hear it and make their own minds up. Remember, the Hollies also said that the Lewisham Odeon 1968 set wasn't worthy of release, and that's probably one of my favourite recordings of theirs.
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Post by Stranger on Jun 25, 2018 21:02:27 GMT
Thanks Cameron, really cool job. Really gives a sense of how the Hollies version might have sounded.
If Graham has '68 CSN demos tucked away, he must have demos of Hollies songs too. And if Graham recorded them so must Allan and Tony! I don't think we've ever heard a Hollies demo before this release?
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Post by anthony on Jun 26, 2018 0:07:33 GMT
Most of the time Graham seems to like to knock his work with the Hollies, Hollies version was a Demo, most demos are a work in progress I would have thought. To me he is like an old hippie and talks about changing the world much like John and Yoko and now Ringo with his Peace and Love all the time. Graham life changed for the better when he met Steven and Crosby as he always says. He had out grown the Hollies at the time and I can understand that. At times don't know how to take Graham, Hall of fame spoke so well about the band and other times loves to have a dig at them.
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Post by rokinrobinoflocksley on Jun 26, 2018 2:26:33 GMT
Cameron, how about working up another version to include the two sections of "all aboard the train"? The chords are there on the backing track in other locations, you'd just have to fly them in to match Graham's vocal. Cheers n chips... Sadly the phrasing just doesn't fit. Graham must have re-arranged the song once in the studio. It seems a bit of a poor show to me that this backing track was all that emerged from a four hour session! So the other Hollies must have stuck their two-penneth in and changed it. The solo demo barely fits with the Hollies' backing track if I'm honest. It took HOURS of playing about with the timing and phrasing to get it all to fit, and no matter how I tried, the "all aboard the train" section just doesn't fit. It's also odd how the Hollies' instrumental version goes on for a further minute after the ending of Graham's solo version! But it's that same end chorus section repeated over and over again. Hmmm... Idea #2: how about including/inserting the "all aboard the train" sections with just Graham, no Hollies backing track on just those 2 short sections? Could that work out OK? I think it'd be most interesting...
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Post by dirtyfaz on Jun 26, 2018 6:32:03 GMT
Nice one Cameron. A thought. Is it possible to change the key or pitch without altering the time?
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Post by distantlight on Jun 26, 2018 7:20:23 GMT
Fantastic job Cameron! I always really liked that song and I think the Hollies version with that fast strumming acoustic guitar, playful bass and some trademark drum fills is pretty cool actually. If they had released it I'm sure a couple of overdubs would have been made but as it is it's a totally fascinating studio demo! Thank you for putting it together!!
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Post by cameron on Jun 26, 2018 8:52:40 GMT
Nice one Cameron. A thought. Is it possible to change the key or pitch without altering the time? That's what I did in the end, I changed the key of the backing track. The vocals are slightly out of tune which is annoying me! But when you have to adjust it in digital increments, it's difficult to manually tune things. If it was on a tape machine, you'd carefully use vari-speed and do it that way. My previous mix I key changed and then sped up the tempo, but this new mix I keep the tempo of Graham's demo, which actually isn't much slower than the Hollies' backing track.
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Post by gee on Jun 26, 2018 19:07:08 GMT
I suspect Graham is a bit uncertain how to handle his Hollies past - he had years of 'distancing himself' saying things such as;
'to think I gave up a white suit for CSN ('coolness') etc
he's got mega set in his ways (as had Ron Richards by 1968 !) of belittling the 'mere pop group' thing - not any personal 'dig' at his old band mate pals themselves (Graham and wife stayed with Tony and Jane Hicks for holidays and vice versa) but re the 'pop group Hollies' image more than anything...
however that Hall of Fame induction has brought it home to him just how LOVED the Hollies were by the public
so now he's in a rather uneven state re his attitude towards his first band - one minute he may sound dismissive of them...then he's so PROUD of 'em !
what once was 'square' and 'mere pop' is now the sixties band in the studio next door to The Beatles in Abbey Road looking in on each other at times ....cooler than Byrds or Springfield for being able to say that !
Jimi Hendrix wasn't so impressed by a Byrds or Springfield album cover he got their photographers in...
so Graham seems to not fully have a fixed view re The Hollies and can be both belittling and praising of them...
I think Allan Clarke seems to also have an indifferent view of The Hollies too going by various things he's said over the years
I DO like Marrakesh Express, CSN version, Hollies put together version, and Nash demo version, indeed Nash's singalong carefree Hollies numbers over 1966-68 were gems for me....!
If I had - MOST unwillingly - to make any criticism of the more mature later Hollies besides the obsession for slow melodramatic ballad after ballad, it would be that they perhaps rather got a little 'too serious too much' and for me something of the very carefree 'joy' in The Hollies music seemed to be phased out with at times a rather mournful style overiding their later seventies work much of the time - look how the by then rarer fun song 'Caracas' stands out on 'A Crazy Steal' album !
alot of The Hollies carefree 'fun' seemed to depart with Nash in late 1968 - not saying he took it with him over to the USA, rather it just faded away to a great extent, perhaps inevitable once they parted company but a shame (Allan Clarke's smile in band photos became rare after 1968 too....)
remember how miserable Allan Clarke looked in 1988 on BBC 'Top of The Pops' TV show when He Ain't Heavy' was NUMBER ONE, Tony Hicks was all serious too ! - The Searchers commented on it in concerts saying they'd be ecstatic if they were at the top of the UK charts again !!!
Actually I do wonder if that aspect put some of the wider public beyond us 'Hollie folk' OFF the band later on...?
not saying people disliked them but maybe too many songs with very 'serious' lyrics like;
'Someone went through pain to have me...'/'Another day has passed away...What Am I Gonna Do....?'/ 'Oh Lucy please don't go away...'/ 'was it for wisdom or for right or was it just for fun...? / 'Too Many Hearts Get Broken Too Many Dreams just Fade Away...' etc
- NOT knocking the songs themselves but maybe too much in that mega serious style probably put at least some people off them over time I do suspect
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Post by cameron on Jun 26, 2018 23:10:33 GMT
I wish Nash would actually get his facts straight. This week he did an interview, claiming that "Carrie Anne" was a big hit in 1966. He states in his book that he had ZERO contact with the group between 1968 and the BBC TOTP promotion for "HolliePops" in 1981. I know 100% that there's a German article out there showing Graham and Allan and Tony crossing paths in a German airport in 1978 with many photos of it. They dissolved the "Clarke Hicks & Nash" partnership for anything post mid-1967 in the early 1970s, someone sold one of the documents signed by Tony, Allan and Graham crediting Tony as the sole writer of "Pegasus", (dated 1974 I think?), and presumably there'd be other copies relating to other songs. I was also told by a fan on the old EO forum that Nash and the Hollies crossed paths in 1974 on their world tours, and one night Graham appeared with the Hollies on stage for a rendition of "King Midas". I've not heard the story twice, so can't confirm it. But it seems reasonable - both bands were on long worldwide tours in 1974.
I thought Allan was quoted re their 1988 no.1 that he was "fed up of being recognised in the shops again"!
I think Allan actually thinks of the Hollies what most of the hardcore fans think. After Graham left, things gradually disintegrated. It cannot be denied. Their three way writing partnership never really took off until 1975 with "Another Night", and quickly dispersed again. Terry always seemed to be the 'hired help', perhaps made to tow the line a bit, so I think he lacked the confidence to push his ideas forward.
The Hollies were primarily Allan and Graham's group in the early 1960s. With Graham gone, Allan's confidence severely knocked, Tony Hicks was free to take the rains, so to speak, which dramatically altered the dynamics of the group. It became a case of giving the public what they want, rather than trying to push the band forward artistically, as Graham had done from 1965-1968. Tony seemed to push for it in 1970 with "Confessions Of The Mind", but met with little commercial success (which I don't think was a reflection of the unanimously critically praised LP, more the bland cover and lack of a lead single), so "Distant Light" became Allan's chance to shine, but again, met with little commercial success. The constant pulling in opposite directions (Tony wanting more mature themed ballads and 'serious' music, Allan wanting more rock and roll), became a source of tension. The Hollies NEEDED a great producer at this time. Ron Richards wasn't giving them enough guidance and didn't seem to be that bothered, and when they self-produced they just ran from one thing to another in a desperate attempt to capture the public's attention.
For me, the Hollies' story is frustratingly filled with 'what ifs'. It seems so obvious what went wrong with hindsight, but at the time, no one was helping them. I have to admit, most of their albums in the early 1970s were absolutely stellar, and I will never understand why they were commercially unsuccessful. I loved the charismatic pop of "Evolution" and "Butterfly" when I first heard them, they are very idiosyncratic of the era that they were recorded and I enjoy that. But I'd been into so many bands who tailed off into the 1970s, that I neglected to try the Hollies' later stuff out initially, assuming that like most of the 1960s groups, they must have lost their sparkle by the early 1970s. When I finally grabbed copies of "Confessions", "Distant Light" and "Romany", I was FLOORED. These albums to me still sounded very fresh and vibrant. But I couldn't say I'd ever seen any of them while flicking through the record bins over the years.
One thing is for sure, all of the Hollies are rather dismissive of that impeccable run of LPs from 1970 - 1975. Other bands have forged entire careers out of less quality than what the Hollies put out in just five years. It frustrates me that they're pigeonholed for being this 1960s pop group. "Romany" especially is one of the LP highlights from anyone from 1972 in terms of the standard of songs and quality of their execution. That's why I just wish someone would put out that Australian live show from 1971. It shows the band at their rockiest and edgiest, turning out their hits with a new found energy and vigour. It might show the wider world that the Hollies were very much alive and well in the 1970s and renew interest in that part of their career.
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Post by allanangel on Jun 27, 2018 1:50:25 GMT
I agree with everything you said, Cameron, with the exception of Romany(surprise, surprise).
The music did get better in the 70s. I listen to song after song and wonder why they weren't huge hits.
I think the biggest turning point that cost them international stardom was when Tony turned down Allan's offer to tour with them when LCW topped the charts in North America. Terry just didn't cut it. Everyone knew that he wasn't the same singer who was on the record, bottom line. The remaining Hollies didn't give the people what they wanted when it really mattered. They wanted Allan. So, people tuned out. IF Tony had put ego aside and said yes, I think they would have just taken right off. IF Allan had had any idea of how LCW would take off here and had kept it for himself, he would be a household name today.
Tony is one hell of a guitar player and songwriter. He doesn't get the credit he deserves. Having said that, and this opinion may be very unpopular here, I think Tony was a wolf in sheep's clothing. He did what he thought was best for Tony and that was it. He made the wrong decision (with Allan's song!!!) and it cost the Hollies their big chance. Sad. Infuriating.
So much great music, so little acknowledgement. People don't know what they are missing. It SHOULD have been so different.
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