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Post by johnt on Aug 27, 2023 21:06:09 GMT
Must've been amazing seeing all these acts at the peak of their powers! I'll be seeing Paul Jones for the first (and probably last) time in October as part of The Manfreds' farewell tour, can't wait. it certainly was, Peter. The following year in 1968, I went to see the next package tour at the Mansfield Granada which, from memory, included The Kinks, The Herd and The Tremeloes (again). Sadly, the Granada is no longer there. Demolished to make way for The Four Seasons Shopping Centre. Hope you enjoy The Manfreds. I've seen them a few times over the past few years, the latest being at The Stables near Milton Keynes a year or so ago. Mike D'Abo wasn't with them on this occasion but Paul Jones was in fine form. My next concert is also in October. You may have heard of them........The Hollies!
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Post by peterc on Aug 27, 2023 21:10:44 GMT
Welcome back, Peter! Someone asked who that left-handed guy was on a video a few posts back. I thought Eddie Wheeler from Vanity Fayre on first glance. But I can't be certain. He plays guitar left handed but the strings are strung right handed, it's unusual. Junior from Marmalade does the same thing. I think Dick Dale was another who did that. Thank you! And yes, you're right! I couldn't think of his name off-hand.
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Post by gee on Aug 27, 2023 21:49:17 GMT
Dirtyfaz - it's not a question of being smug (you can keep your silly personal digs to yourself you won't intimidate me with your comments I can assure you !)
- if you don't like others posting about other artists such as The Hollies sixties contemporaries The Tremeloes etc... then why not simply ignore this thread instead of repeatedly chiming in with no useful contribution just sarcastic digs attempting to close the discussion down just because you do not happen to approve of it ?
and also....why not post ten pages of interesting posts about The Hollies for members to enjoy yourself if it really annoys you so much that such a ongoing thread is devoted to another Hollies contemporary sixties/seventies group eh ...?
Back to this thread....
Good to see others do wish to continue this interesting thread Cameron began which has explored The Tremeloes history seeing them make some key career errors much as The Hollies did, both bands were unfairly tagged as mere 'lightweight pop groups' for too long chiefly as some music writers only liked so called 'serious' bands (a few of which both Hollies and Tremeloes outsold re regular big UK hit singles plus overseas hits through the sixties on into the first few years of the seventies)
...and both groups could and should have achieved alot more - each band had the talent - but for some avoidable errors re choices of singles
Like The Hollies with Gralto so The Tremeloes formed Gale Music to publish their original songs
they did share pop TV shows and early on there were some squabbles re who performed what songs - notably both groups did; 'Do You Love Me', 'Candy Man', 'I Take What I Want', 'Cool Jerk', 'You Don't Know Like I Know', 'Reach Out (I'll Be There)', 'I Shall Be Released', 'Everyday' besides other Rock & Roll numbers
The Hollies suffered from John Lennon and George Harrison's derision and some resulting Beatles fans and music writers 'sheeple' like intense dislike as a result...
likewise The Tremeloes had some Beatles fans intense dislike for winning out over the Fab Four re the infamous Decca audition...then having a big UK hit single with 'Twist and Shout' when The Beatles named EP was also high in the UK singles and EP charts
both Hollies and Tremeloes carried on charting in the UK and overseas after The Beatles dissolved too....proving both groups had some popularity and chart strength throughout the same era
they both shared key members becoming noticeably bored with the pop style too...Graham Nash openly 'booing' the announcement of their song 'Jennifer Eccles' onstage in Croatia (and duly taking a comedy guest vocal verse lampooning the song on The Scaffold's hit 'Lily The Pink')...with Alan Blakley's 'morons' remark being about as unwise as John Lennon's 'Bigger than Jesus' comment...
However both Hollies and Tremeloes lacked any major image (besides a brief psychedelia look) or entirely wanted one and that rather told against them in the long run...
such was their respective shared lack of major profiles that until the last few years neither Hollies or Tremeloes have had a book devoted to them - thankfully Brian Southall and Malc have recitified the postion for The Hollies while Peter is currently setting the record straight for The Tremeloes music and releases too - but the lack of interest earlier in any such projects for either group until recently says alot for just how badly underrated Hollies and Tremeloes were by so many music writers...
...and we haven't even looked properly at Manfred Mann, Marmalade, Dave Dee & co, etc....
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Post by baz on Aug 27, 2023 23:52:25 GMT
...and we haven't even looked properly at Manfred Mann, Marmalade, Dave Dee & co, etc.... There appears to be only one book on the Manfreds that I know of by Greg Russo which is essential reading and like Peter's books, focuses primarily on the music as opposed to offstage dramatics and the like and it covers Manfred's entire career as well. Yet in the overall scheme of things, I do think Manfred Mann were under-rated and now overlooked, forever remembered for one or two of their big hits and not much else which is a shame as in their initial form they were very unique the way they were fusing R+B with Jazz and pop - major faves of mine being 2 B sides "I'm Your Kingpin" and "Stay Around" complete with Mike Hugg's vibes solos - no other beat group were doing that! And what on Earth was "Machines"? That was a truly startling and unique track! Then there was the whole issue with Paul Jones leaving the band, how he had to stay in the band longer than he wanted as they took forever to find his replacement, obliged to do a new single which ended up at number one, EMI ditching the band in favour of Paul as a solo act and the Manfreds having to start completely afresh with Mike D'Abo ushering in a curious era of eccentric pop heavily centered around the Mellotron before many others began using it... and of course there's a few Hollies connections there with Klaus Voorman slated to replace Eric Haydock only to accept the Manfreds gig, Mike Vickers doing arrangements for The Hollies and leading the orchestras on the tours The Hollies and Paul Jones did together... And in spite of D'Abo proving himself to be a great songwriter, they stuck to using outsiders material for their singles in a very similar situation to The Hollies in 1964 after "We're Through". The Manfreds actually rejected "Build Me Up Buttercup" which would have been a huge hit for them as well as "Handbags and Gladrags" and even cut then rejected a version of "Seasons In The Sun"... There were so many great bands around in the 60's which had their own unique brands and sagas so I'm grateful for people like Peter trying to get the stories from those that matter whilst they're still with us. So I don't have any issue about other bands of the era being discussed around here as The Hollies have hardly been doing anything exciting - this year, we did have Allan, Graham and Mikael all releasing new solo albums around the same time, news of the BMG deal and that's about it. Now Terry Sylvester has sobered up he's obviously being more considerate and cautious with his Twitter posts as we haven't discussed them in quite some time! Fact is, all those 60's bands knew each other, toured and did TV shows together and there was competition between them, trying to push forward with new sounds, finding hit songs, keeping relevant, moving with the times so they're all part of one big club.
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Post by dirtyfaz on Aug 28, 2023 3:49:02 GMT
"Dirtyfaz - it's not a question of being smug (you can keep your silly personal digs to yourself you won't intimidate me with your comments I can assure you !)
- if you don't like others posting about other artists such as The Hollies sixties contemporaries The Tremeloes etc... then why not simply ignore this thread instead of repeatedly chiming in with no useful contribution just sarcastic digs attempting to close the discussion down just because you do not happen to approve of it ?
and also....why not post ten pages of interesting posts about The Hollies for members to enjoy yourself if it really annoys you so much that such a ongoing thread is devoted to another Hollies contemporary sixties/seventies group eh ...?"
Just like the kettle calling the pot black. Twice is not repeated posts.
Not an attempt to intimidate you just so you know. You are as bad as you call out other people.
The hugh amount of sarcasm sure show a lot about your character.
Have fun with your own mind.
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Post by JamesT on Aug 28, 2023 6:14:11 GMT
Re: Manfred Mann, I seem to recall mention somewhere of interviews having been filmed for a documentary in the same DVD series as David Peck's Hollies creation. This has never seen the light of day.
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Post by peterc on Aug 28, 2023 7:15:56 GMT
Re: Manfred Mann, I seem to recall mention somewhere of interviews having been filmed for a documentary in the same DVD series as David Peck's Hollies creation. This has never seen the light of day. Didn't he say something along the lines that these were no longer financially viable? A shame, as it could've been very worthwhile. I know he also planned a similar documentary on The Searchers, but gave up due to the continuing anomosity and disagreements between Mike Pender and John McNally/Frank Allen!
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Post by baz on Aug 28, 2023 8:56:46 GMT
Re: Manfred Mann, I seem to recall mention somewhere of interviews having been filmed for a documentary in the same DVD series as David Peck's Hollies creation. This has never seen the light of day. Didn't he say something along the lines that these were no longer financially viable? A shame, as it could've been very worthwhile. I know he also planned a similar documentary on The Searchers, but gave up due to the continuing anomosity and disagreements between Mike Pender and John McNally/Frank Allen! Yes - that's right. I recall he did interviews with the Manfreds and The Pretty Things as they were the next RITY DVD's in the series and he wanted to do The Searchers as well but had to scrap due to the reasons mentioned. The Pretty Things one was eventually released as part of their big "Bouquets From A Cloudy Sky" boxset a few years later. I don't know if the Manfreds one was completed or not and sits alongside the thousands of hours of footage RITY has sitting about.
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Post by peterc on Aug 28, 2023 9:39:36 GMT
When I did my Searchers book, Mike Pender had no problem writing a foreword for a book that includes 4 pages devoted to Spencer James' solo albums, and Frank Allen was (privately) highly complimentary about Mike's talent, and indicated in his 2nd Searchers book that he wouldn't completely rule out any reunion. I suspect it is John McNally who is the problem...
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Post by baz on Aug 28, 2023 10:09:29 GMT
When I did my Searchers book, Mike Pender had no problem writing a foreword for a book that includes 4 pages devoted to Spencer James' solo albums, and Frank Allen was (privately) highly complimentary about Mike's talent, and indicated in his 2nd Searchers book that he wouldn't completely rule out any reunion. I suspect it is John McNally who is the problem... Yes, I feel that way as well. When Chris Curtis and Tony Jackson were still with us, there were regular disagreements especially with Curtis and nobody else seeming to ever agree with his view on their history but they did make up with Tony before he died and Frank wrote a great tribute to him. John Blunt also returned to guest at that one gig. I've always had Frank down as a general all round good guy and rather conciliatory and forgiving so that does leave McNally who I suspect being the sole original member is the one who calls all the shots and has a grudge so deep that the situation remains in stalemate. Strong shades of Graeme Edge who held the same position in The Moody Blues and his vicious refusal to forgive Mike Pinder for leaving the band in 1977/1978. There's also the rather bitter spat and state of affairs between Peter Noone and Barry Whitwam.
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Post by Stranger on Aug 28, 2023 11:50:55 GMT
This is a great clip but maybe highlights the relative different positions of the Hollies versus Tremeloes. The Hollies did well to keep their concerts a notch above the nostalgia circuit. I'm not sure if many other 60s bands did?
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Post by baz on Aug 28, 2023 14:52:28 GMT
This is a great clip but maybe highlights the relative different positions of the Hollies versus Tremeloes. The Hollies did well to keep their concerts a notch above the nostalgia circuit. I'm not sure if many other 60s bands did? Amusing to see and brought back some odd memories as in many ways this was a rather atypical report of the era where 60's acts were concerned as back then the media seemed to be amazed that any act could perform past the age of 40 so there was always that underlying sneery factor as well implying they were perhaps "too old" to be doing what they were doing. I remember a headline in 1988 when The Hollies were number one screaming "HE AIN'T HEAVY BUT HE AIN'T HALF OLD!" I also remember a Whistle Test report looking at a tour featuring Bobby Vee and Del Shannon and they were asked how old they were and questioned whether they should be touring at their age or not. How times and attitudes change. The Hollies are certainly one of the rare exceptions where the nostalgia circuit is concerned able to still do gigs on their own as opposed to a multi-act star filled bill.
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Post by peterc on Aug 28, 2023 19:04:49 GMT
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Post by gee on Aug 29, 2023 21:35:46 GMT
Dirtyfaz - it was at least three posts repeatedly attempting to shut this thread down with a negative view re it's relevance not two, none having anything positive to contribute at all just bitterness and sarcasm
- and note they were ALL ignored by members as the thread has continued on with positive contributions...including from Moorlock who made a helpful contribution to this thread when he gave us the American angle re The Tremeloes in his country and his own view on the songs they cut (which I completely agree with)
so You have fun with your own mind too Dirtyfaz
Now I'm not wasting any more time on such a pointless non musical issue just Thank goodness for the ignore function on here...!
good to see the discussion ongoing - The Hollies were able to keep above the 'silver sixties' nostalgia packages, and in retrospect maybe it was a good thing the propsed album of re-cuts never happened
Tremeloes, Searchers, Merseybeats, Dave Dee & co all did such albums - not too badly either - but at least The Hollies kept their own headline show
re The Moody Blues - yes Graeme Edge kept up something of a bitter regard re Mike Pinder...however I always suspected Edge knew Pinder's exit marked the end of their 'golden' era despite a USA chart topping album later in 1981 as slowly but surely the er 'balance' of the band began to shift...Ray Thomas, then Graeme himself were effectively 'sidelined' by 1986 - 91 respectively as the 'Hayward-Lodge' version of the group took an increasing firm hold re songs and musical style/direction
Edge even later called their 1991 album 'Keys of The Kingdom' on which he had no song at all; 'A Load of old Boll*cks !'
Edge also bemoaned his song 'Coconut Christmas' being left off the festive themed 'December' album...and he LOATHED them covering the old Bing Crosby hit 'White Christmas' so much he wanted it removed from the album years after...
yet Graeme closed their final proper studio album 'Strange Times' (1999) with his poem/song 'Nothing Changes' by quoting Mike Pinder's words from back in 1968:
'....and life is still A Simple Game...'
suggesting Edge, for all his apparent brusk 'Brummie' in ya face mega bluntness, under that was actually a deeper thinking very perceptive man (as his poetry and later songs suggested) who was only too well aware of just how much Pinder's exit had taken from the group he had been a part of with Ray and Mike right from the beginning
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Post by baz on Aug 29, 2023 22:52:30 GMT
suggesting Edge, for all his apparent brusk 'Brummie' in ya face mega bluntness, under that was actually a deeper thinking very perceptive man (as his poetry and later songs suggested) who was only too well aware of just how much Pinder's exit had taken from the group he had been a part of with Ray and Mike right from the beginning I am one of those fans for whom there was no Moodies without Mike Pinder. His departure completely disrupted the balance as Pinder, Edge and Thomas had been there since the beginning... and had gone through the traumas and uncertainties of Denny Laine's departure (following an uncertain 1966 with their success rapidly dwindling) then the humiliation of the early days with Hayward and Lodge when they lost their way and somebody then told them they were crap forcing a complete rethink and reboot which sent them in a new direction plus Pinder's acquisition of his Mellotron was a major part of that giving them a signature sound and thanks to his knowledge having built some of the earlier models, he was the one Mellotron player who didn't suffer disasters on stage because he knew how to control and fix it when need be whereas other bands were screwed when their 'Trons malfunctioned! Watching Pinder play on vintage live footage is always fascinating how he played that 'Tron. Once Pinder was gone the band became the Blue Jays show as they assumed control and it was kinda sad seeing and hearing Ray Thomas grow ever more sidelined as the years went on. In some ways I liken Pinder's departure to that of Allan Clarke's in 1971 in that when he left at that point, it gave complete control to Tony and Bobby so even when Allan returned, his main footing in the band dynamic was more diminished. So I do think that was likely behind Edge's bitterness as he knew Pinder was crucial to the balance of the band and I think Allan felt similarly when Graham departed The Hollies. Having been in some bands myself I know how strange and crucial balance and dynamics are within a band. Bringing us back to The Tremeloes, when Alan Blakley made those "moronic" remarks, the rest of the band were mortified and couldn't take it back and I think most of us feel following that, things were never the same for the band again, all because of a moment of madness on the part of one member. That's the problem - similar to when Lennon made his infamous remarks about Jesus Christ, The Beatles had to answer for it and suffer the adverse effects... one member steps out of line and it screws up the balance for everybody else.
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Post by peterc on Aug 30, 2023 5:10:43 GMT
Re Alan Blakley's "morons" or "moronic" remark, does anyone have the exact quote, and know when and where it appeared? Or is it one of those urban myths, where he didn't actually say that word?
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Post by peterc on Aug 30, 2023 7:23:29 GMT
Re Alan Blakley's "morons" or "moronic" remark, does anyone have the exact quote, and know when and where it appeared? Or is it one of those urban myths, where he didn't actually say that word? At least one source claims that it was actually a radio interview.
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Post by Stranger on Aug 30, 2023 12:19:58 GMT
I've often wondered if there is an actual source for Paul McCartney thinking Graham Nash was a trumpet in I Can't Let Go.
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Post by baz on Aug 30, 2023 14:09:07 GMT
Re Alan Blakley's "morons" or "moronic" remark, does anyone have the exact quote, and know when and where it appeared? Or is it one of those urban myths, where he didn't actually say that word? Yes... it would be nice to finally clear this one up. I recall first reading about it 40 odd years ago in one of those "History Of Rock" magazines but can't say I've ever seen the actual article or source of the comment. Whilst it is possible to be an urban myth, there is no doubting something involving "morons" was stated which caused the Trems' success to plunge. Another "legend" from 1970 is one where The Pretty Things' "Parachute" was Rolling Stone's album of the year. The band members have claimed it many times thanks to their last manager who was renowned for twisting truths such as claiming "SF Sorrow" was recorded at the same time as "Sgt Pepper" and "Piper At The Gates Of Dawn" when in reality it was the "White Album" and "Saucerful of Secrets". Years ago I asked around on an older music forum and yep, it turned out to be a load of nonsense as some who were regularly buying Rolling Stone back then stated point blank it never happened and that the album passed them by as it wasn't featured let alone received such a lofty accolade. Hopefully we can finally get to the bottom of this "morons" debacle.
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Post by peterc on Aug 31, 2023 13:11:40 GMT
Re Alan Blakley's "morons" or "moronic" remark, does anyone have the exact quote, and know when and where it appeared? Or is it one of those urban myths, where he didn't actually say that word? Yes... it would be nice to finally clear this one up. I recall first reading about it 40 odd years ago in one of those "History Of Rock" magazines but can't say I've ever seen the actual article or source of the comment. Whilst it is possible to be an urban myth, there is no doubting something involving "morons" was stated which caused the Trems' success to plunge. Another "legend" from 1970 is one where The Pretty Things' "Parachute" was Rolling Stone's album of the year. The band members have claimed it many times thanks to their last manager who was renowned for twisting truths such as claiming "SF Sorrow" was recorded at the same time as "Sgt Pepper" and "Piper At The Gates Of Dawn" when in reality it was the "White Album" and "Saucerful of Secrets". Years ago I asked around on an older music forum and yep, it turned out to be a load of nonsense as some who were regularly buying Rolling Stone back then stated point blank it never happened and that the album passed them by as it wasn't featured let alone received such a lofty accolade. Hopefully we can finally get to the bottom of this "morons" debacle. The closest I can find is 'Melody Maker', from 3rd October 1970. The heading is "We'd get backstage and just kill ourselves laughing at the audience", and they refer to their previous record buyers as " silly suckers" rather than "morons". I suspect it IS the article which effectively finished their chart career in the UK though!
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Post by baz on Aug 31, 2023 14:41:21 GMT
The closest I can find is 'Melody Maker', from 3rd October 1970. The heading is "We'd get backstage and just kill ourselves laughing at the audience", and they refer to their previous record buyers as "silly suckers" rather than "morons". I suspect it IS the article which effectively finished their chart career in the UK though! Excellent... glad that's been tracked down. "Silly suckers" or "morons", damning comments all the same as one doesn't bite the hand that feeds you! Now in this digital age it's easy to forget or overlook the influence the music papers had back then. Might be worth tracking down the following editions for their letters... maybe that's where the "morons" remark originated, from some indignant fan.
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Post by peterc on Aug 31, 2023 15:00:08 GMT
The closest I can find is 'Melody Maker', from 3rd October 1970. The heading is "We'd get backstage and just kill ourselves laughing at the audience", and they refer to their previous record buyers as "silly suckers" rather than "morons". I suspect it IS the article which effectively finished their chart career in the UK though! Excellent... glad that's been tracked down. "Silly suckers" or "morons", damning comments all the same as one doesn't bite the hand that feeds you! Now in this digital age it's easy to forget or overlook the influence the music papers had back then. Might be worth tracking down the following editions for their letters... maybe that's where the "morons" remark originated, from some indignant fan. I've done that too. Some very angry (former) fans, but still no mention of "morans"!
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Post by Stranger on Aug 31, 2023 18:53:05 GMT
Have any of the band said they said it?
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Post by peterc on Aug 31, 2023 19:07:58 GMT
Have any of the band said they said it? Everyone agrees that it was Alan Blakley who said whatever the comment was... and he died in 1996. Dave Munden died in 2020, and I haven't spoke to Chip or Rick, and anyway I'd rather see it in print than rely on the memories of others 53 years after the event.
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Post by gee on Sept 1, 2023 22:50:36 GMT
It might be quoted on a CD booklet - I will try to track it down - but Dave Munden ruefully reflected re the derogative remark about fans;
'that was Alan, I loved the guy but he sure had a big mouth...!'
re Paul McCartney - on youtube is his singles review in one of the UK pop papers in 1966 (Nash, Elliott both do one too among many famous guest reviewers) where Paul praises up 'I Can't Let Go' and asks something like 'was that a trumpet ?' re Nash's high note !
re The Moody Blues keyboardist Mike Pinder - he DID have to do a few quick onstage mellotron 'repairs' as the thing was very unpredictable in those early days
Mike being something of an 'expert' tasteful player and a skilled arranger...plus Decca staff producer Tony Clarke (the 'sixth Moodie') and crucially the often overlooked former Mantovani recording engineer Derek Varnals (the 'seventh Moodie' in truth) together were able to record the mellotron with 'doubled up' strings tapes losing the sharp cut off and established a symphonic wave sound that was their trademark orchestral backdrop behind Hayward's guitar and their four part choral male harmonies (that were pioneered by the original Moodies with Denny Laine)
Derek Varnals knew how to record the cascading 'sweeping strings' of Mantovani - who had used the same studio The Moodies later were allocated at Decca, plus Mantovani had largely pioneered popular stereophonic recordings, so Varnals was perfect as recording engineer capturing the 'ebbing' and 'flowing' sound of Pinder's playing it's very noticeable how much 'Blue Jays' by Hayward & Lodge in 1975 (engineered by Varnals) sounds like one of the so called 'core seven' Moodies albums...while 'Octave' (1978 minus Varnals) often does NOT sound much like their earlier classic albums at all...
This 1965 single written by Laine-Pinder; 'From The Bottom of My Heart (I Love You)' which charted in the UK is a key point in their history re use of the four part 'wailing' harmonies...also towards the conclusion the addition of Ray Thomas flute and the dramatic arrangement by Mike Pinder anticipates the later classic Moodies approach - note also the mega fast piano figure by Mike at the intro...slowed right down and transferred to mellotron became the key orchestral figure two years later on 'Nights in White Satin'
Mike's song 'Love And Beauty' introduces the mellotron in 1967 on the single before 'Nights' - tho' Manfred Mann was using the mellotron as a string section in 1966 on the album 'As Is' and the single 'Semi Detached Suburban Mr James'
It sounds like a mellotron on The Hollies 'Wings' in 1968 and I think one is featured as part of the orchestration in those latter songs during the BBC televised concert in February 1969
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